Why did they ban Motorcycles

[ZMC888]

[RANT]What is it with car drivers? Worldwide phenomenon. Guy buys a car, thinks every other vehicle should be banned, bikes are always target no1.

Can't reverse or use a mirror? How about parking assist, a rear camera and blind spot detection?
Can't brake properly? How about electronic handbrakes, ABS and collision avoidance systems like brake assist?
Can't use a throttle or clutch properly? How about traction control and cruise control or future ACC car herding or automatic transmission?
Can't steer? How about lane assist and lane change assist?
Can't use a map or understand the suns position in the sky? How about GPS?

3 bicycles, one motorcycle, last thing I drove with four wheels was a shopping trolley, but still I'd love to drive a real car (rear wheel drive 200hp plus with no retard-friendly electronic gizmos) on a track or mountain road, but f *** these sanitized front wheel drive moron boxes dumbing down skills and polluting the environment. Tedious lame stupid things please someone destroy these satan cages and recycle them in something worthwhile, like soda cans. [/RANT]

[branng]

As a not-so-long-time lurker and a fairly recent two-wheeled, motorised transport convert, I have to speak up in defence of e-bikes and e-scooters in the interest of fairness and balance, as reading through this now resurrected thread, there seems to be a slight prejudice against e-scooters. Fact is, the issue which we (myself included) have with e-scooters/bikes isn't with the vehicles themselves, but the people riding them being blatant law transgressing and inconsiderate individuals who abuse the impunity offered to them by China's (draconian) the-priciest-vehicle-is-responsible-for-the-accident rules. Banning electric bikes/scooters is not the solution to Beijing's congestion and pollution issues.

I think we have to accept that electric bikes and scooters will be part of the transport mix of the very near future (not just in China), so the question is, GIVEN this reality, how do we make things work as smoothly as possible? How about this for a start:

1) Anything under 350W (maximum output from an average human on a pedal bike // max speed approx. 30km/h) gets classed as a bicycle and is required to stick to bicycle paths.
2) Anything between 350W and 3000W (max speed of approx. 65-70km/h) gets a new designation as a 'electric scooter' and is allowed to use both bike paths (where it is restricted to 30 km/h) and the far right lane of roads. A corollary of this is that this new class of vehicles is NOT allowed to perform manoeuvres which require a vehicle to be on the far left lane i.e. make left turns at junctions, U-turns etc.
3) Anything over 3000W is treated as a motorcycle. The rider will be required to have a motorcycle license and the bike must be plated with a new class of license plates for electric motorcycles which have the same restrictions as the 京A plate, let's say 京D, D for dian (电). I understand that the Beijing government is making a push for more electric vehicles on the road on environmental grounds (at least publicly), so keep registrations for the 京D plate open (if environmental concerns really are the reasons for encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles).

And of course, having said all this, for goodness sake, make all bikes, petrol, electric or meat powered, and all pedestrians stop at red lights! Green = GO! Red = STOP! Fines for not doing so should hurt - RMB5 doesn't do it. How about a crisp, new RMB50 note? Pedestrians/cyclists/e-bikers who cross at a red have blatantly and wilfully ignored the law and so have no defence against a fine - however severe - whatsoever.

(Disclaimer: I'm one of the few electric bikers - but not the only one - who stops at EVERY single red at traffic lights; and I'd fall under category 2 of the above classification).

[Lao Jia Hou]

... the issue which we (myself included) have with e-scooters/bikes isn't with the vehicles themselves, but the people riding them being blatant law transgressing and inconsiderate individuals who abuse the impunity offered to them by China's (draconian) the-priciest-vehicle-is-responsible-for-the-accident rules. Banning electric bikes/scooters is not the solution to Beijing's congestion and pollution issues.

+1 on that. For in-city riding, I'd certainly switch to an e-scooter IF the battery recharging wasn't such an arduous chore, the range was >200 kms on a charge, and there wasn't a deterioration in cold weather. I'd love to have one of those Zero motorcycles manufactured in California - be a great all-around bike for Beijing. I don't see why China hasn't copied it.

I think we have to accept that electric bikes and scooters will be part of the transport mix of the very near future (not just in China), so the question is, GIVEN this reality, how do we make things work as smoothly as possible? How about this for a start:

1) Anything under 350W (maximum output from an average human on a pedal bike // max speed approx. 30km/h) gets classed as a bicycle and is required to stick to bicycle paths.
2) Anything between 350W and 3000W (max speed of approx. 65-70km/h) gets a new designation as a 'electric scooter' and is allowed to use both bike paths (where it is restricted to 30 km/h) and the far right lane of roads. A corollary of this is that this new class of vehicles is NOT allowed to perform manoeuvres which require a vehicle to be on the far left lane i.e. make left turns at junctions, U-turns etc.
3) Anything over 3000W is treated as a motorcycle. The rider will be required to have a motorcycle license and the bike must be plated with a new class of license plates for electric motorcycles which have the same restrictions as the 京A plate, let's say 京D, D for dian (电). I understand that the Beijing government is making a push for more electric vehicles on the road on environmental grounds (at least publicly), so keep registrations for the 京D plate open (if environmental concerns really are the reasons for encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles).

And of course, having said all this, for goodness sake, make all bikes, petrol, electric or meat powered, and all pedestrians stop at red lights! Green = GO! Red = STOP! Fines for not doing so should hurt - RMB5 doesn't do it. How about a crisp, new RMB50 note? Pedestrians/cyclists/e-bikers who cross at a red have blatantly and wilfully ignored the law and so have no defence against a fine - however severe - whatsoever.

Very reasonable, except I'd advocate even higher fines, and unwavering enforcement.

Sadly, the Beijing government tried to ban all e-bikes/e-scooters a couple of years ago. Again, I never understood that ridiculous policy proposal.

[branng]

+1 on that. For in-city riding, I'd certainly switch to an e-scooter IF the battery recharging wasn't such an arduous chore, the range was >200 kms on a charge, and there wasn't a deterioration in cold weather. I'd love to have one of those Zero motorcycles manufactured in California - be a great all-around bike for Beijing. I don't see why China hasn't copied it.

Realistically, I get about 70 km on my e-scooter if riding at full pelt (45 km/h - roughly the average speed which busses here in Beijing get up to). 100 km at 35 km/h. I could've gotten more capacity in my battery pack - maybe an extra 20% - but the range I opted for is sufficient for my daily travel requirements. My (removable) battery pack comes in at around 17 kg (38 lbs) which I think is luggable, but I prefer riding my e-scooter straight into the lift, straight into my flat and have it plugged in - which is presumably, exactly what you'd do if you did get your hands on a Zero motorcycle.

Speaking of which, the 2013 Zero S is sweet! Probably have a better chance getting your hands on a Brammo though, seeing that they've already established dealerships in HK. Both the Zero S and the Brammo Empulse are coming up USD20K though. Ouch!

[bikerdoc]

The Central Government should have stuck to it's plans several years ago where they'd proposed a law/regulatory change that would have required all riders of ebikes no matter the output of the electric hub/motor to secure a drivers/riders/operators license. Makes perfect sense that any road user needs an introduction to the "road rules" and applicable laws. It would also made it compulsory that all ebikes (whether scooter or bicycle design) had to have a license plate (which for the scooter style is compulsory now anyway). The other important addition was a type of insurance, third party same as required for all other legal road going vehicles. Problem was that as is common practise here TIC! vested interest groups (industry lead) and netizens banded together and conducted huge, vocal and sustained publicity campaigns so much so that the government backed down, much to the chagrin of many other road users I'd suspect, and henceforth the status-quo we see before us, remains.

I think such a law and the three requirements need to be revisited and that the government should adopt the regulations - the sooner the better IMO.

I've also had my share of ebikes/escooters (had several many years ago, SH then Ningbo), and while very useful and what I thought, user-friendly, lack the required ability to cover distance (I often got to within 60km range, and would run the battery flat trying to go places (local mountains and beyond even though I knew the range limitations). The range limitation along with the cost of purchase, i.e. not that far away from the cost of small 50-125cc scoot with an internal combustion engine, are significant barriers to me today. While the Brambo, Zero et al., are encouraging there's still a range barrier to overcome and to me that is a huge stumbling block. There's also a slight misconception as to the supposed environmental cost of all electric vehicles. They are not anywhere near as "green" or environmentally friendly as is claimed - though I wish they were. Pity, and I might add I'm in no way anti-electric, I subscribe to a number of online "electric" publications e.g. evworld. Cost per mile/km the electric vehicle doesn't cut it economically at this point in time, when one factors in ALL costs. No, akin to the beta versus VHS tape debate, electric propulsion in it's current form is not the solution, while hydrogen is IMO, but as with the beta tape industry it is being left out in the cold as mainstream vehicle manufacturers race to adopt and fill inventory with some type of electric or hybrid offering so as not to be seen to miss out an emerging market share, which is partly driven by such industry lead decisions.

Anyway back to motorcycle bans. I think it has as much to do with the basic tenant of peasant/farming socioeconomic status/perception, as well as a mode of choice for some thieves (purse snatchers), polluting engine designs (two strokes and poor maintenance), poor quality standards of some motorcycle designs, lack of ability in relation to enforcement (few jurisdictions in China send out tickets for motorcycle infringements), general education level of many riders, central government policies to encourage vehicle (cars upwards) manufacturing (export policies, R&D incentives etc), local consumption policies/incentives/subsidies for the locals to take up car ownership, ROI, industry wide maturing leading to export opportunities and much much more. All act as impediments and barriers to motorcycle, use, ownership etc. Overly simplistic, but I'm not going to sit here and type a thesis (already writing one).

Basically the whole arena is marked by both it's complexity and convoluted-ness.

[ZMC888]

Motorcycles, said it 100 times 250cc and above same plates as a car or another color, same fines, same insurance, however same rights such as using a regular road, freeways etc. Motorcycles 250cc and below stay on yellow plates as now.

Ebikes, easy as Branng says 350W and below treated as bicycles, above that some licensing and registration.

A warning to all: Car driving bureaucrats worldwide will try to legislate against ANY vehicle and these regulations are very popular with other schadenfreude car drivers. Look at Australia, compulsory cycle helmets and even cycle bells in Brisbane. Legislation to attack cycles pointlessly. As people switch to cycles to beat congestion and pollution many car users are clamoring for compulsory high-viz clothing and cycle registration, next will come compulsory insurance and licenses and making the riding of a bicycle anywhere other than a cycle lane illegal. Of course these will all be pointless in terms of safety because it's the cars that make the roads less safe and polluted and congested, however these rules would make cycling less popular and awkward merely so that car drivers can feel the 'playing field has been leveled'.

When you let car driving bureaucrats bully ebikes and cycles you open the door for the next attack on motorcycles. All you saying every ebike no matter the wattage should have registration and licenses are idiots.

[bikerdoc]

Appears to be a few assumptions and inaccuracies.

Cycle helmets are a safety device much in the same way as seat belts are. I don't have my health statistics in front of me at the moment but I can tell you just casual observations that many Chinese die from significant head trauma as a direct consequence of failing to use either safety device (cycle/motorcycle helmet, seat belt), and before you boho my claims, I work in medicine and the health sector here in China and have done so directly for more than a decade (in China) and was overseas before that. Want to see preventable vehicle/road trauma come to the hospital I am consulting in!

As for registration of ebikes, absolutely should be the case in China at least that way everyone should have the requisite knowledge to be an equitable road user. Here in these parts there are many tens of thousands of migrant workers, and locals alike that buy and are buying ebikes, and then go about riding them without any regard for themselves or any other road user for that matter! C'mon down around breakfast or dinner time on any given day in the special economic and trade development zone and watch the chaos that unfolds. Complete disregard for any road rules, and some would say complete demonstration of a lack of common sense and ones own personal safety to boot.

As for regulating ebikes out of the equation, the opposite can and does occur. Case in point - in NZ (last year) I was surprised to see a escooter parked with regular license plate on the rear when I was last in the Hawkes Bay town of Napier. It'd been a few years since my last visit back 'home' and back in the day ebikes/escooters (weren't common anyway at that time) couldn't be used on any public roadway. So to see this one escooter adorned with a regular license plate was a positive. At the time I had thought at first it was a regular small 125cc scooter, but what really interested me was that is was of the 'typical' Chinese scooter design so common here, so I rode on over to the scoot to take a closer look (I was on my Burgman AN650). It was then that I realised that it was an electric scooter and not a petrol/gas powered one. Big surprise. Roll back 5 years or more, there was no ability to legally ride an escooter/bike on a public road in NZ and registration was not an option.

Back to China, absolutely it should be mandatory for licensing a ebike/escooter, license the rider of any and all vehicles used on public roadways or thoroughfares, and compulsory insurance to cover said road users liability towards themselves and others, and moreover the said road user needs to be held accountable for THEIR actions, no matter they are a pedestrian, a cyclist or something resembling an ass. Yes seems a little draconian to even suggest licensing cyclists, but there needs to be a serious and significant attitude adjustment, wherein one realises that for the average local, any assumed knowledge over common road rules and the like, commonly do not exist.

Right now in CHINA, the situation is a farce!

[branng]

Here's why I'm not 100% sure if licensing is necessarily the solution to the problem (maybe it is, but bear with me...). I think the fundamental issue which everyone has raised is that of basic road etiquette and personal and third-party safety, and it is clear and apparent that licensing does not entirely solve this issue, judging by the number of examples of legally plated cars and motorcycles with fully licensed drivers placing themselves and others at risk with their errant driving (of course, none on MCM ;)).

At best, all licensing will do is reduce the likelihood of law transgressions by giving license holders something to lose via point deductions, which in turn, does not necessarily guarantee safer roads. At worst, what licensing could end up doing is creating a band of bold, reckless idiots who think they are free to swerve in and out of lanes, cut other motorists off etc. while believing (possibly incorrectly) they are legally immune from road accidents involving themselves and a more expensive vehicle i.e. creating moral hazards, not entirely impossible given the "rigorous" training at driving/riding schools. Furthermore, any attempts to do so will be greeted with consumer and industrial backlash, which will bring down any attempts to ratify such legislation.

The FUNDAMENTAL issue here is education. Educate people so they understand why wearing safety gear while riding is a necessity; educate them so they understand why it is better to wait at a red at traffic lights. One thing which the government has done incredibly well (at least here in Beijing) is 'nudging' people to take part in regular exercise by creating loads of 'playground gyms' - something which the UK is now looking to adopt, if not already. One idea might be to work with apparel manufacturers to make it 'cool' to wear a helmet or a motorcycle jacket. Or maybe to make it uncool to run a red. No idea how you're supposed to do the latter, short of installing hidden spikes under the ground which deploy if a car/bike/pedestrian runs a red.

Just a thought or two...

[ZMC888]

i cannot agree with you Bikerdoc. If an ebike that puts out as much power as a human can be forced to be registered and licensed then the next step is forcing bicycles to be too, and that would be fucking lame.

Branng is absolutely right, it's about education, how about some public service advertising? I think some of us are familiar with advertising campaigns like UK's 'think!' or Australia's 'Drink, Drive Bloody Idiot'. Easy to advertise on TV, internet, railway stations and other large public TV screens all over China.

[Lao Jia Hou]

Someone sent me this video. Apparently, it was done by a group who researched the reasonableness of motorcycles. The group is hoping it will become viral.



I wish the group luck, although I kinda doubt many "leaders" will be watching it ... or, if they somehow did, paying much attention to it.