Thoughts on chopper...pd-250

[moilami]

Seller claims it's $1100 dropped at my door...hence my suspicion :)

Uh, the saying goes "if it is too good to be true, then it wont be true". Just sayin'.

[euphonius]

Uh, the saying goes "if it is too good to be true, then it wont be true". Just sayin'.

BigHabeeb, These couple of stories should clear your sinuses a bit...

From Bloomberg...
Baidu, Taobao Identified as `Notorious Markets' by U.S. for Helping Piracy
By Mark Drajem and Mark Lee - Mar 1, 2011
Baidu Inc. and Alibaba Group Holding Ltd.’s Taobao, China’s biggest Internet search engine and retailer, were named “notorious markets” by the U.S. Trade Representative for helping sustain piracy and counterfeiting.

The two Chinese companies were among more than 30 Internet and physical markets worldwide identified by the USTR for helping the illegal sale of goods or materials protected by copyright or patents. Others on the list include the Pirate Bay file-sharing website in Sweden and the Silk Market in Beijing, according to the statement.

The U.S. agency called on regulators overseeing the markets included in its list to pursue possible legal action and step up efforts to combat the violations. The spread of global piracy and counterfeiting hurts entrepreneurs and industries worldwide, said Ron Kirk, the trade representative.

“There’s always some concern on investors’ minds about fraud,” said Aaron Kessler, an analyst at ThinkEquity LLC in San Francisco. “That’s existed in China to a larger degree than with U.S. companies.”

Zhao Xianquan, a spokesman at China’s Ministry of Commerce, didn’t immediately return two calls to his office telephone seeking comment.

Baidu, China’s most visited website, provides “deep linking” to items on sites that are being sold without the copyright holders’ permission, according to the statement. Taobao has a “long way to go” to stamp out the availability of infringing goods on its website, though the company is making “significant efforts” to resolve the problem, according to the statement.

Physical Markets

“We will continue to work closely with brand owners and others to further enhance the level of trust and integrity in our online marketplaces,” John Spelich, a Hong Kong-based spokesman at Alibaba, said in an e-mail today. Kaiser Kuo, a spokesman at Baidu in Beijing, declined to comment.

Other websites listed include torrentz.com; ThePirateBay, which has been the target of “notable criminal prosecution” in Sweden; 91.com; and Rutracker based in Russia, according to the statement.

“The United States urges the responsible authorities to intensify efforts to combat piracy and counterfeiting in these and similar markets, and to use the information contained in the Notorious Markets List to pursue legal action,” according to the U.S. report.

The report also listed 17 physical markets, including the Silk Market in Beijing, which it called a “particularly prominent example of the counterfeiting of commercial and industrial products that is endemic in many retail and wholesale markets throughout China.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Mark Drajem in Washington at mdrajem@bloomberg.net; Mark Lee in Hong Kong at wlee37@bloomberg.net

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Larry Liebert at lliebert@bloomberg.net

From AP via the Washington Post...
US says China's Baidu, Taobao markets for piracy
By JOE McDONALD
The Associated Press
Monday, February 28, 2011; 11:50 PM

BEIJING -- The U.S. government has labeled China's top search engine, Baidu, and a popular e-commerce platform "notorious markets" linked to sales of pirated and fake goods.

The two companies were among 33 websites or public markets in China, Russia, India and other countries that the U.S. Trade Representative's office said Monday facilitate trade in music, clothing and other goods that are fake or unauthorized copies.

China is a leading source of fake and counterfeit goods despite repeated government crackdowns. Beijing launched its latest enforcement effort in October and says it hopes to achieve lasting results.

The USTR report said Baidu links to websites that sell pirated or counterfeit goods while outside merchants use Taobao, an e-commerce platform operated by Alibaba Group Ltd., to sell infringing items. It said the list was not a legal finding but an effort to call attention to abuses and encourage governments to stop them.

The outlets cited "exemplify the problem of marketplaces dealing in infringing goods and helping to sustain global piracy and counterfeiting," the report said. "The United States urges the responsible authorities to intensify efforts to combat piracy and counterfeiting in these and similar markets."

The report said Taobao is making "significant efforts" to address piracy but "still has a long way to go in order to resolve those problems."

Alibaba said last month its chief executive and chief operating officers resigned to take responsibility after a probe found suppliers defrauded customers. It said 100 salespeople, out of a workforce of 14,000, allegedly involved in defrauding customers were fired.

In a written statement, an Alibaba spokesman, John Spelich, said: "We appreciate the USTR's acknowledgment of our ongoing efforts to work with brand owners in protecting their intellectual property rights and we will continue to work closely with brand owners and others to further enhance the level of trust and integrity in our online marketplaces for the benefit of all our stakeholders."

A Baidu spokesman, Kaiser Kuo, declined to comment.

Other websites cited by the report include Canada-based IsoHunt, Russia-based Rutracker, China's 91.com and Demonoid in Ukraine. It cited public markets in China, Ecuador, Paraguay, Indonesia, Ukraine, India and Argentina.

The report said the economy of a whole city in Paraguay, Ciudad del Este, is "based in part on the trafficking of counterfeit and infringed goods," especially electronics.

"This activity spills over into the entire Tri-Border Region of Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, creating a hotbed of piracy and counterfeiting," the report said.

---

Baidu.com:http://www.baidu.com

Taobao (in Chinese):http://www.taobao.com

from Xinhua news agency...
Executives of Alibaba resign after fraud probe
HANGZHOU, Feb. 21 (Xinhua) -- Chinese e-commerce giant Alibaba said Monday its chief executive officer and chief operating officer had resigned after a probe found many suppliers had defrauded online customers.

David Wei and Elvis Lee resigned as CEO and COO respectively, accepting responsibility after 1,107 of its suppliers were terminated for using the site to cheat buyers in 2010, the company said in a statement to media organizations.

"Alibaba will definitely not become a money machine, and any behavior that runs against the company's values will not be tolerated," the notice said.

"Integrity is the foundation of values that Alibaba cherishes most, which include the integrity of the staff and a honest and safe online trading platform," said founder and non-executive chairman Jack Ma in a letter to his employees.

The company had received complaints about fraudulent trading since 2009, and such cases continued to be reported despite Alibaba's efforts including shutting down suspected suppliers, according to the notice.

Alibaba launched an investigation more than a month ago, which showed that 1,219 suppliers in 2009 and 1,107 suppliers in 2010, accounting for 1.1 percent and 0.8 percent of its total suppliers in the two years respectively, had acted fraudulently.

Their accounts have been closed and judicial investigations started.

Copyright 2010 Xinhua News Agency

From the Economist...
An online-fraud scandal in China
Alibaba and the 2,236 thieves
Feb 22nd 2011, 10:15 by The Economist online

IN ITS early days, the founders of eBay would often say that their real accomplishment was neither their clever technology nor the electronic marketplace they had created—both of which existed before. Instead, their achievement was spiritual: they helped create trust between people who never met.

Building this sort of trust was always going to be a challenge in China, where counterfeiting and the production of dangerously flawed products is rife, but it has been a key aspect in the development of Alibaba, China’s eBay-inspired ecommerce platform. The company’s value as an electronic listing service has always been evident: standard business directories had disappeared after the communist revolution and an information vacuum persisted after the economic re-awakening. However, given China's problems with fraud and product quality, its potential as a trading platform has been a matter of debate, attracting both believers and sceptics. It now appears evident that at least some scepticism is warranted.

On February 21st, in a filing with the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, Alibaba announced two of its most senior representatives, David Wei, the chief executive, and Elvis Lee, the chief operating officer, would resign to accept responsibility for the company having granted "golden status" a mark of supposed integrity, to 2,236 dealers who it says had subsequently defrauded buyers. Although the two executives were not personally implicated, the company said an internal investigation had found that about 100 sales staff and “a number of supervisors and sales managers” were “directly responsible in either intentionally or negligently allowing the fraudsters to evade” various controls.

Alibaba says the average compensation claim from victims of the scams is only $1,200 but it has not so far disclosed how much the claims are likely to cost it in total. In 2009, as the frauds started coming to light, the company set up a compensation fund, which has so far paid out $1.7m to 2,249 buyers.

The revelations, and the company’s response, have generated conflicting responses. One view, which the company itself is vigorously promoting, is that the resignations and the firm's public announcements are indicative of Alibaba’s underlying integrity and quality. It investigated the fraud accusations thoroughly and was forthcoming in publishing details, in sharp contrast with other Chinese companies caught up in scandals, most notably those involved in distributing melamine-tainted milk.

Conversely, it can be argued that Alibaba had little choice. The revelations put the company’s very existence at risk. Anything other than a highly publicised defenestration of senior people could have been fatal to the overall business. The scam originated in a critical part of its business, a dedicated platform called “China Gold Supplier”. A trader pays a fee to join, and then after being verified by a third party, can sell to global buyers. The scams endangered the endorsement value of this verification system, and, of course, undermined the incentives for any global buyer to work through Alibaba. Had Alibaba done nothing, it may have ultimately been worth nothing.

The investigation attributed the fraud to “the pursuit of short-term financial gain at all cost”. It emerged at a time when Alibaba’s broader business prospects have seemed to be dimming. Its shares fell abruptly after the announcement, but even before it they had been trading at less than half their level in the heady days of 2007, following the company's initial public offering.

The company’s chairman, Jack Ma, is a brilliant speaker and acclaimed visionary and, apparently, too important to walk the plank with his underlings. In the aftermath of the announcement, he issued a letter saying, “only through holding onto our ideals and our principles will we be able to become the pride of this era!” Despite the resignations, global buyers considering using Mr Ma's portal may need further reassurances as to what those ideals and principles are.

[jape]

So we fall back on caveat emptor, buyer beware? general questions Jeff, not at you.
I think our friend here wants to know he will get it for the money, not about copyright - and 99% of us are the same.
There's ten thousand buyers for every seller so the moral issue is diluted when we pick on the enablers!

Awareness of copyright infringement means including in some areas, every China bike owner! Now for example I didn't know of the fact that engines were 'grey area' illegal clones in some machines and the same would apply for most of the engineering from what MJH and others have suggested at times. So does not knowing excuse me, it certainly doesn't in many other areas of law?

And I happily and needfully look for cheap copies of gear. i.e. 'barkbusters', bar-mirrors etc. at a small fraction (often 20% or less) of the retail price for brand name.
I suppose that morally speaking i should do without the safety aids such as those!

When it comes to morality, our whole western world was and still is built on slavery, exploitation, power and murder, the copyright-law is a small fraction of that. Every issue has its dark side, and every issue that we see as dark, ie exploitation of workforces, has its light side. The ideal world doesn't exist, instead many sell ther time, life and souls for the hope of self-advancement or perhaps more importantly for the hope for their children.

The moral flaw is in seeing any of this as, well, moral and excusable. It is not. It is just what exists and the choices are in the soul of everybody at every moment. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and media releases, I am personally already in hell. I do not blame any little hustling china-baron or pakistani-middleman for any of it. Just my ex-wife and the Queen.

Thieves and hustlers of the world unite, stand up for yourself! You are just minor daemons in the pantheon and pageantry of evil we call earth 2011 and your payment is the blood of innocents and the lives of the down-trodden. Motorcyclists of the china-world salute you and thank you for your efforts! Now sell me a cheap stainless exhaust for the Kinlon 200cc and I will be happy.

[euphonius]

Dear Jape,

Yes, that was basically my point: Caveat emptor, or, as Moilami said, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I'd really hate to be on the wrong end of a deal involving thousands of dollars that soured because a dishonest Alibaba or Taobao vendor thought he could scam someone far away. But this stuff happens every day. Taobao is an amazing thing, and I don't know how China survived for 5,000 years without it. You can find bloody well anything in there, almost. And most of it is legitimate, though a lot of it, as you've noted, is created without respect for intellectual property rights. But for all its wonders, it's also a haven for fraud, and these recent cases are probably just the tip of the iceberg. The authorities would like us to think that because a couple of executives got handslapped and several thousand dishonest stores were closed, the problem now is finished. Let's enjoy our harmonious society! Until the next scam comes along, which, in fact, was already happening when the state proclaimed the problem was resolved...

China really is an alternative universe where rule of law is at best just a hammer with which grandma preserves her unquestioned power. The internet allows that China to project itself into places like New Jersey. But America's rule of law protections, good (though not perfect) as they are, do not reach into China, and shouldn't be expected to any time soon.

Which is a long way of saying: Caveat emptor.

cheers!

[bighabeeb]

Dear Jape,

Yes, that was basically my point: Caveat emptor, or, as Moilami said, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I'd really hate to be on the wrong end of a deal involving thousands of dollars that soured because a dishonest Alibaba or Taobao vendor thought he could scam someone far away. But this stuff happens every day. Taobao is an amazing thing, and I don't know how China survived for 5,000 years without it. You can find bloody well anything in there, almost. And most of it is legitimate, though a lot of it, as you've noted, is created without respect for intellectual property rights. But for all its wonders, it's also a haven for fraud, and these recent cases are probably just the tip of the iceberg. The authorities would like us to think that because a couple of executives got handslapped and several thousand dishonest stores were closed, the problem now is finished. Let's enjoy our harmonious society! Until the next scam comes along, which, in fact, was already happening when the state proclaimed the problem was resolved...

China really is an alternative universe where rule of law is at best just a hammer with which grandma preserves her unquestioned power. The internet allows that China to project itself into places like New Jersey. But America's rule of law protections, good (though not perfect) as they are, do not reach into China, and shouldn't be expected to any time soon.

Which is a long way of saying: Caveat emptor.

cheers!

First of all thanks so much for the articles - definitely a good read. As pointed out, my biggest concern is "am I going to send money and receive nothing and/or something different then what I paid for" - I don't stand on morals when it comes to spending money: I'm frugal and like to get the most bang for the buck that I can. While in general I don't approve of stealing, for whatever reason I can very easily justify the pirate bay or similar copyright infringing resources...and that extends to goods as well.

I guess the real question is, if buying from china supplier rather than one in the US what is the proper amount of cost difference to see? Enough to make it worth taking the chance with an overseas buyer? Or would it be, as it most likely would be to compare the same electronics between best buy and PC Richards, a negligible amount - low enough that it's not worth driving from one store to another. I've never shopped with an overseas wholesaler before, hence my confusion: I really just dont know what to expect!

[culcune]

I have been a member here since this site first started, and a member on chinariders since it first started, and I have never heard anyone purchasing anything from Chong Electronics. I would look around to buy from someone in the US and pay the extra cash. I can almost guarantee that you will either lose your money completely due to fraud, or the bike is not EPA certified so you will not be able to take it home as it will sit languishing at the port, and you will be out your money, or it will cost about the same to import it due to fees and such making it not worth it vs. buying something similar from a US source (ie the Dong something 'Bobber' or Johnny Pag) Stay away, IMO

[slabo]

Read about the relation between wars in Africa, and how many iPhones are sold in the US. It's not really news, but this gives you some number.
http://www.simple-mathematics.com/en...te/2006-12-01/

Before purchase, one 1.9 pound, 125 dollar, TMX Tickle Me Elmo speaking doll has already traveled the world.

* * * * *

One large, smooth-cayenne pineapple purchased in a Kansas City grocery store weighs approximately 5 pounds and is roughly 16 inches long and 8 inches wide. Its mother plant was grown in the humid Hawaiian climate for roughly 18 months before producing its first fruit, and has put out new fruit approximately every 14 months.

To get to Kansas City, the pineapple was loaded into a freight container that measures 8 feet wide, by 8.5 feet tall, by 20 feet long. That means that just over 2,300 pineapples could fit into one freight container, making the freight container weigh approximately 11,500 pounds, or just under 6 tons. The freight container was then loaded onto the Mahi Mahi container ship using machinery manufactured in South Korea over 4,500 miles away, with parts made in southern China 1,300 miles from South Korea, with resources mined in Central Africa 5,500 miles from southern China. Built in 1983, the Mahi Mahi has a capacity of 30,825 deadweight tons. One deadweight ton is equivalent to 2240 tons. That means the single pineapple accounts for about 1/13,809,600th of the Mahi Mahi's total cargo, fully loaded.

The Mahi Mahi consumes over 53 gallons of fuel per mile**. The distance between Honolulu's shipping harbor and that of Los Angeles, California is nearly 2,562 miles, a trip that takes 1 week. That means that in one run from Honolulu to Los Angeles, the cargo ship consumes approximately 136,850 gallons of fuel. Being 1/13,809,600th of the total cargo, the one pineapple is then responsible for burning roughly 1/13,809,600th of the fuel consumed in the cargo ship's run. So the one pineapple so far is responsible for the consumption of roughly 0.01 gallons, or 2.56 tablespoons, of fuel.

The fuel used in container shipping, the left over dregs in the petroleum refining process, called bunker fuel, contains up to 5,000 times more sulfur than diesel fuel does. Though ocean shipping is only responsible for 2-3 percent of the world's fossil-fuel consumption, it produces 14 percent of the world's nitrogen oxides and 16 percent of the world's sulfur emissions; accounting for the semi-permanent clouds that hover above shipping routes. Worldwide shipping is expected to triple by 2020 due to global trade agreements, and there still exists little to no emission regulations for container shipping.

After arriving in Los Angeles, the container of pineapples was offloaded at the shipping docks and resorted in a fruit broker's facility, then reloaded into an 8 x 8.5 x 53 foot container. That container was then loaded onto a semi-tractor trailer that carries a maximum weight of 40,000 pounds by US law. Being completely filled with fruit, it would weigh closer to 34,000 pounds. A semi-tractor trailer fully loaded gets approximately 5.5-7 miles per gallon and is exempt from most federal or state laws concerning fuel efficiency. Assuming that the semi-tractor trailer carrying the pineapple gets 7 miles per gallon of diesel fuel, and the road distance between Los Angeles and Kansas City is just over 1,600 miles, the journey would consume about 229 gallons of diesel fuel. Being that the 1 pineapple is approximately 1/6,800th of the total cargo, then 1/6,800th of the fuel consumed for that one pineapple is roughly .03 gallons of fuel, or 7.68 tablespoons.

Therefore, the consumption of that pineapple purchased in that Kansas City grocery store is responsible for the consumption of at least 10.24 tablespoons of refined petroleum products. After peeling and coring a 5 pound pineapple, it weighs closer to 3.5 pounds. Three and one half pounds of pineapple can produce approximately 40 tablespoons of juice. Therefore, every four cups of pineapple juice is responsible for the consumption of at least 1 cup of refined petroleum products.

* * * * *

There are currently over 1.2 billion cellular phones in use worldwide. That means that there are just about 5 people per cell phone on the planet. They are currently discarded at a rate of about 125 million per year. Cell phones contain approximately 40% metals, metals that come from South and North America, Australia, Asia, Europe, and Africa. One cell phone battery contains about 2 ounces of coltan, a metal used to make portable electronic devices like laptop computers, cameras, MP3 players and cell phones more compact. Approximately 80% of the world's proven coltan reserves are found in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The Second Congo War officially started in 1998 and ended in 2003. The Rwandan Army funded the war with as estimated $250 million in profits from the export of roughly 2.7 million pounds of coltan in less than 16 months. In 1998, international prices soared from $60 per kilogram (2.2 pounds) to $200. The majority of the coltan deposits were located in eastern Congo far from any potential Congolese military protection; and they were therefore easily conquered and the mines confiscated by the Rwandan Army who paid as little as $10 dollars per kilo in slave-like working conditions. The Second Congo War resulted in at least 3.3 million deaths. Therefore, the war is responsible for over 1 death for every pound of coltan exported during that time. With 2 ounces of coltan per cell phone battery, it would take less than 7 cell phone batteries to account for 1 death in the Second Congo War. I personally own 4 cell phone batteries, one laptop computer, a digital camera, a digital camcorder and a brand new shiny MP3 player.


** Statistics for container shipping fuel efficiency is very secretive. The Arafura container ship that runs between Australia, Japan and Korea has a capacity of 23,009 deadweight tons, or 51,540,160 pounds. Green Plus, a company producing an additive meant to increase the efficiency of cargo shipping, ran tests on the Arafura and found it to consume close to 53 gallons of fuel per mile. The Arafura has a carrying capacity roughly 25% smaller than the Mahi Mahi, meaning that the Mahi Mahi likely consumes more fuel per mile than the Arafura. However, being that the Arafura is the only ship with fuel consumption statistics, it will stand to represent the Mahi Mahi at a consumption rate of 53 gallons of fuel per mile.

Sources:

Arafura Container Ship (1986-2002). Board of Trade Acquaintances. November, 2006.
http://www.botacquaintances.co.uk/sh...g/Arafura.html

What Does it Cost to Dispose of a Cell Phone? Berkeley Energy Office. November, 2006.
http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/sustain...CellPhone.html

Hawaii Service Schedule. Matson Shipping. November, 2006.
https://www.matson.com/fss/reports/haw_s.pdf

U.S. Flag Oceangoing Fleet. U.S. Department of Transportation, Maritime Administration. November, 2006.
http://www.marad.dot.gov/MARAD_stati...eet%202005.pdf

Arafura Container Ship Fuel Economy Tests. Green Plus. November, 2006.
http://www.biofriendly.com/maritime/totvoy.htm

How Far is it? Indo.com. November, 2006.
http://www.indo.com/distance/

EPA to Regulate Air Pollution from Big Ocean Vessels, San Diego Earth Times. November, 2006.
http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0201/et0201s14.html

Ship it, Ship it Good, Grist Environmental News and Commentary. November, 2006.
http://www.grist.org/biz/tp/2006/05/23/shipping/

Policy Discussion – Heavy-Duty Truck Fuel Economy, National Commission on Energy Policy. November, 2006.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...eer_kodjak.pdf

The Life Cycle of a Cell Phone, Environmental Protection Agency. November, 2006.
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/educatio.../life-cell.pdf

Coltan, Gorillas, and Cell-phones, Cellular-News. November, 2006.
http://www.cellular-news.com/coltan/

War, Murder, Rape… All for Your Cell Phone, AlterNet. November, 2006.
http://www.alternet.org/story/41477/

And thanks to Wikipedia for its information on coltan, Second Congo War, semi-tractor trailer, and cargo ship.

[barnone]

bighabeeb,
Make this simple for me.

A Chinese vendor in China says he is going to drop ship a Chinese bike from China to you house in the USA without you going through US customs at the port of entry and paying for DOT inspection, EPA inspection, tariff fees, custom fees, port fees,etc?

[MJH]

Here is that chopper.

here is an online vendor that is advertising it....but the list it as out of stock. http://evosales.com/pd-250-custom-chopper.cfm

It's not a PAG its a v-twin.

[bighabeeb]

Here is that chopper.

here is an online vendor that is advertising it....but the list it as out of stock. http://evosales.com/pd-250-custom-chopper.cfm

It's not a PAG its a v-twin.

Yep thats the one :)