just ordered theregal raptor DAYTONA 350

[Steve_R]

OK glad it worked out for you. Well this confirms what I had been suspecting about the local plate issuing situation. It sounds like it wasn't such a difficult process for you to purchase the plates on the secondary market and then have them transfered to your name. What I'd also be interested in is the re-selling process if and when you decided you wanted to sell the bike off and/or transfer the plate to a car.

I can't help but recall an article in the Shanghai Daily around 2006 when the city first stopped issuing new plates for motorcycles. At that time, they wanted people to mainly give up the gas scooters, as there wasn't much of a disctinction between motorcycle and scooter plates. During that article, they said the validity of the plates was 8 years, and the idea was that the plates would gradually expire and then people would either give up the bikes or trade them in for the almighty car. In theory, all the scooter and bike plates (if they are the same thing) should be out of circulation by the end of 2013 and the city could institute a full-scale ban by following similar steps to what Guangzhou did.

Since I've just realized now that the market for plates is secondary only, I would be hesistant to make such an investment unless I knew that the plates could keep running indefinitely past 2013, say, as long as I paid the yearly insurance fees and had the bike checked for emissions requirements.

What's your take on all this? If the plates don't expire then I totally agree it's a worthwhile liquid investment despite the high initial price

There's also the possibility that Shanghai won't follow Guangzhou's lead and they won't ban bikes like Guangzhou did. Beijing has a good system already in place for the bike plates, and new plates are definitely being registered there. Since Shanghai tends to be innovative and doesn't follow other cities, my overall guess is they would run a lottery system for bike plates like they do for the car plates. The prices would be high of course, maybe not as high as an actual car plate, but it would work as long as people were willing to pay the investment. Also, if there were a way to get newly registered plates, then the city could be more justified in the crackdown against unregistered bikes.

My own take on things is that I agree with the the long-running crackdown on unregistered scooters driven by morons around here, but I only fear it's the lead-up to a total ban in the near future unless things become clearer on the next steps that the city may want to do with the bikes.

As it stands now, I'm more inclined to wait until 2013 or 2014 and see what happens, and hope that the government would take a more positive attitude towards the current bike situation, to see if perhaps it would be more favorable towards bikes in the future.

[jape]

just a question, do you also have to pay yearly 'registration' fees/state or equivalent mandatory insurance, duties, taxes etc. in China?
Mine would be somewhere between $350 and $400 a year if I say bike is worth $1000 only and if I calculated correctly (it depends on area you live in), plus the same for personal Insurances.

[euphonius]

There's also the possibility that Shanghai won't follow Guangzhou's lead and they won't ban bikes like Guangzhou did. Beijing has a good system already in place for the bike plates, and new plates are definitely being registered there. Since Shanghai tends to be innovative and doesn't follow other cities, my overall guess is they would run a lottery system for bike plates like they do for the car plates. The prices would be high of course, maybe not as high as an actual car plate, but it would work as long as people were willing to pay the investment. Also, if there were a way to get newly registered plates, then the city could be more justified in the crackdown against unregistered bikes.

My own take on things is that I agree with the the long-running crackdown on unregistered scooters driven by morons around here, but I only fear it's the lead-up to a total ban in the near future unless things become clearer on the next steps that the city may want to do with the bikes.

As it stands now, I'm more inclined to wait until 2013 or 2014 and see what happens, and hope that the government would take a more positive attitude towards the current bike situation, to see if perhaps it would be more favorable towards bikes in the future.

Steve,

There's no need to wait till 2013 to find out what Shanghai is doing. The vehicle management bureau is fully involved in the transfer of these existing plates in circulation, and they have no end-of-use date. It's actually only the right to have a plate that is in limited supply and allowed to change hands, not the plates themselves. I purchased my plate rights from a seller, and went to the vehicle management bureau to register the transfer of the plate rights' ownership. I then spun the electronic dial by which the bureau's computer spits out available plate numbers, and I chose one to my liking. It is impossible that this was the same number as the one used by the person who sold the rights to me. I then took the printout and went to the plate issuance window, where my new plates were pulled from the shelves and handed over to me.

My motorcycle registration is for 11 years, which seems to be the official permitted life for a motorcycle in China. It says right on my registration book that my registration faces mandatory expiration on 11 June 2021, exactly 11 years from the date of registration. Why 11 not 10 or 12 or 20, I do not know. But there is no mystery about the duration of my registration. This does bring to mind a question: Does the plate registration expire on the same date, or is that only the last day that my BIKE can be registered? My assumption is the latter, but if it's the former, then the 40k-plus I paid has a half-life and will lose value as the years tick away. In Chinese, the expiration line reads: 强制报废期止, meaning roughly "mandatory scrapping deadline". Surely that applies to the bike, not the registration!

Incidentally, this same question applies to buyers of real estate in China. My apartment has a 70- or 90-year expiration on the land-use rights, and I don't think anyone knows as of now whether this will be rolled over for the future owners, or taken back by the state. I'll be long gone by then, and perhaps the current state will be gone too, so I don't much care. But 11 years I do care about!

You might go back and re-read my post on Getting Legal in Shanghai, since it covers a lot of this stuff in detail.

Bottom line: Shanghai and Beijing seem to be moving toward accommodating motorcycles among the permitted categories of vehicles, as they have welcomed major retail operations by Harley-Davidson (directly owned), BMW Motorrad (via local agents) and Ducati (also via local agents) and have moved to establish clear procedures for registration, licensing and expiration of user rights. It's hard to imagine them simply banning bikes altogether, and it's perhaps even conceivable that, under World Trade Organization fair play rules, cities with bans will be obliged to fall into compliance.

One dissent: I don't agree with your assessment that Beijing has put a "good system" in place; by maintaining lower prices but subjecting the public to a limited auction, they have created a Frankenstein of a system that is fair to no one and already is breeding new forms of corruption (i.e., retirees paid to apply for plates, then handing them over to illegal syndicates for black market transfers). Shanghai's system does penalize the poor, but simply lets the market set the price and hence is technically fairer and not as susceptible to yellow cows, scalpers and other bottom feeders. If the city really is taking enforcement seriously, even the fake plates can be easily curbed.

Again, full disclosure: I'm paid into the current plating system and hence have an interest in its continuation and success.

We really should be discussing this over beers, or coffee during a nice ride in this lovely spring weather!

cheers!

[Lao Jia Hou]

Beijing has a good system already in place for the bike plates, and new plates are definitely being registered there.

I can't really speak to how Shanghai (SH) does it, but I suspect it is very similar to Beijing (BJ), albeit the secondary market price is much higher in SH than in BJ.

Here's how it works in BJ (also a secondary market):

1) There are limited number of "A" plates in existence in Beijing. Say, for argument's sake, the number is 100. No new plates will be issued - the maximum number of plates on the road can only reach the 100.
2) If you buy a new bike that can be registered with an "A" plate, you must find an existing bike with an "A" plate, destroy that bike (# of bikes temporarily down to 99), and transfer the plate to the new bike (# of bikes back up to 100).
3) Technically, the new bike is sold to the owner of the old bike with the A plate. The new bike will actually be registered into that person's name (step 5, below).
4) The "owner" then has the old bike destroyed at the special police compound that handles such things and gives the "owner" a piece of paper saying the bike is destroyed and a new plate can be issued.
5) Using this new piece of paper, the new bike's fapiao (issued in your name), the temporary "owner" gets insurance in his/her name, and has the bike registered in his/her name, and a new plate issued.
6) Once the paperwork is in order (new plate, new books), the bike is then transferred again, into the "real owner's name" (i.e., you).
7) The "new" plates are valid for 11 years on a new bike. At the end of 11 years, the bike MUST be destroyed (there is currently NO way around that - none, zilch, zero). When you destroy a bike and transfer the plates over to a new bike, the 11 years starts ticking again. You can destroy a legal bike at any time (i.e., you don't have to wait the 11 years).
8) We haven't had any of the legal Harleys / BMWs / etc come up to the 11 year mark, and nobody really knows what will happen with them at that point. These expensive machines aren't the 500 rmb residual value 50cc, 100cc & 125cc bikes that were prominent when the "policy" was set.

I have registered several bikes, and always used an agent (agents are very inexpensive - and make their money because they do several bikes at a time, at each step).

I once followed an agent around to see how it was done, and realized that the 200 rmb service fee was money well spent. As Euphonius notes, these agents know their job, understand the convoluted bureaucracy, and know the people behind the counters.

At present, an A plate in Beijing runs 12K to 20K (depending on dealer markup). I just did one last week for 12.5K. Last September, it was 8K. Supply is fixed, but demand is increasing tremendously because of the car plate lottery happening in BJ (people are considering bikes as an alternative in-city transportation).

Unlike SH, we in BJ do not have the ability to exchange bike plates for car plates - cars & bikes are two completely separate systems in BJ.

Bike ban in BJ? Well, anything is possible ... but I think it is very unlikely for several reasons. Many people who ride legal Harleys & BMWs in BJ are top government people, including top police officials. Both Harley & BMW have very powerful connections. And the number of legal Harleys hitting the roads in BJ would make your head spin. A new Harley is the new fashion statement in Beijing.

Rumors/gossip/misinformation abounds in the Beijing's expat community about motorcycling, but hopefully the above gives you a slight understanding of how it works in Beijing.

[euphonius]

just a question, do you also have to pay yearly 'registration' fees/state or equivalent mandatory insurance, duties, taxes etc. in China?
Mine would be somewhere between $350 and $400 a year if I say bike is worth $1000 only and if I calculated correctly (it depends on area you live in), plus the same for personal Insurances.

Dear Jape,

Apparently it does not work this way, with annual registration fees. As far as I can tell, I only have to present my bike for a two-year inspection before June 2012. There may be some user fees assessed at that time, but my expectation is that they'll only collect inspection fees. I do have to re-up my insurance annually.

Apart from my expensive purchase of the plate rights from the seller in the secondary market, there were several thousand RMB in various fees assessed by the vehicle management bureau at the time of registration last year. I'm thinking these were a once-off, barring some change of policy. Incidentally, real estate purchases here are the same: You pay one tax upon transfer, and there is no annual property tax -- at least not yet. There is a drumbeat that Shanghai will be among several cities implementing some trial form of annual property tax starting this year, but I'm hearing this may be limited to second homes and properties above a certain threshold value.

cheers

[ChinaV]

Incidentally, this same question applies to buyers of real estate in China. My apartment has a 70- or 90-year expiration on the land-use rights, and I don't think anyone knows as of now whether this will be rolled over for the future owners, or taken back by the state.

I'm sorry for going way off topic, but I read this and it sparked a question that's been sitting in the back of my mind for years. When they section off X-square meters of land and put up an apartment building, nobody actually owns "the land". What you do own is a concrete cubicle with a couple hundred other people stacked beside, under, and on top of you. Since no building in China will stand for more than 25-30 years, what happens 25 years from now when they condemn your apartment building and knock it down? Does anyone really believe or care about the 70 year ownership clause when there is no possible way that any apartment built in the last 20 years could possibly be standing 70 years down the road?



I'm terrified of the idea if buying property here, but the Shanghai license plate deal seems to make perfect sense.

Cheers!
ChinaV

[Lao Jia Hou]

just a question, do you also have to pay yearly 'registration' fees/state or equivalent mandatory insurance, duties, taxes etc. in China?
Mine would be somewhere between $350 and $400 a year if I say bike is worth $1000 only and if I calculated correctly (it depends on area you live in), plus the same for personal Insurances.

Hi Jape - the policies keep changing. One used to pay a Road Tax, but it has been done away with and folded into other fees. Very, very roughly, the annual costs for plates, insurance, etc, probably averages out to no more than a few hundred rmb per year. It goes up/down/around each year, and policies change, etc. But it is a small charge.

After you've paid the entrance fee to "the club" (getting the legal plate), the annual dues are small.

[Lao Jia Hou]

Does anyone really believe or care about the 70 year ownership clause when there is no possible way that any apartment built in the last 20 years could possibly be standing 70 years down the road?

Have faith, my friend, have faith!

Seriously, you are correct about building standards, etc. My sweety & her family are into real estate, big time, and they are of a very typical Chinese mentality ... "don't worry, there will be a new policy when that starts to happen."

Me, on the otherhand ... I am a western-educated finance guy ... I want to see iron-clad contracts & ownership. TIC - doesn't work that way.

One thing I've learned is ... give sweety my bank account numbers with unbridled access, never question her logic, and sit back and enjoy their bizarre & magical ability to pick investments. If we'd followed my western due diligence, we'd be living in a cardboard box under a bridge. Instead, sweety just sold a house down in Guangzhou (yup, your neighbourhood) for a completely unrealistic sum ... the very house I told her back in 2003 that we would be crazy to buy. I keep my mouth shut now.

Have faith - ask Mrs. ChinaV!

[Steve_R]

Thanks both of you for this reliable information with details and experience --- this is exactly the kind of thing I need to be reading, and it's very hard to find this information from other sources. So it looks like I've been wasting my time reading the expat boards (i.e. Shanghai expat) or the newspapers for bike registration, as they are riddled with inconsistencies and speculation. The stuff here is far more accurate, and it explains the details that can't be answered satisfactorily from the expat community or even the locals who ride motorbikes in general.

Alright I owe you two a beer for this.

There was a funny story once, can't recall exactly, about someone who walked into a local traffic police office and asked a question about bike registration. Two cops then got into an argument with each other because each cop first told the foreigner a contradicting piece of information.

Having read this info here, it doesn't appear that a ban is likely in Shanghai if the government is still allowing the plates to be reprocessed with an 11 year period to 'start ticking' away again by the transfer of secondary plates to a new bike.

Actually this is starting to make a ton of sense, in that it's all the older gas scooters would be destroyed by the end of 2013. In other words, they want the bikes themselves off the road, and not necessarily the registrations attached to the bikes. Then, with the newer bikes being purchased and registered, the city wouldn't have as much to worry about pollution, safety, etc.. as the newer bike models meet higher standards.

So with that in mind, what happens if the former owners just decide to destroy the bikes and not bother selling off their registration or transfering to a car? If there are multiple bikes destroyed in this way, does this increase the quota of available license plates that could be potentially re-transfered to a brand new bike?

[euphonius]

....Actually this is starting to make a ton of sense, in that it's all the older gas scooters would be destroyed by the end of 2013. In other words, they want the bikes themselves off the road, and not necessarily the registrations attached to the bikes. Then, with the newer bikes being purchased and registered, the city wouldn't have as much to worry about pollution, safety, etc.. as the newer bike models meet higher standards.

So with that in mind, what happens if the former owners just decide to destroy the bikes and not bother selling off their registration or transfering to a car? If there are multiple bikes destroyed in this way, does this increase the quota of available license plates that could be potentially re-transfered to a brand new bike?

Yes, this is very much about bringing order to the streets and ridding them of dangerous bikes and irresponsible riders.

There are tons of legal plates out there, and many of the bikes to which they are attached indeed are coming up against their mandatory scrap dates. But surely their owners know precisely how much their plates are worth and will hold them or cash in as they see fit. As for the total number of plates in circulation in the market, I believe that if the scarcity goes so high that plate prices rise to ridiculous levels -- i.e., double or triple that of car plates -- the bureau will start releasing new plates to meet demand. But by then the streets likely will be pretty much cleared of illegal rocketscoots and brakeless rustbuckets.

Look also at the ever-stricter emissions rules. These are not aiming to eliminate bikes, but to hold those that are licensed to the highest possible emissions standards. As of the past few months, bikes that do not meet the China3 standard, which is actually tougher than Euro3, simply are not allowed to be registered anywhere in China. Would that the US Congress and government could show as much backbone!

cheers!