Road-trip advice

[slabo]

Where's PAL... anybody seen PAL? PAAAAAL?

I'll have to get sorted when I come back to Shanghai anyway and I rhink I'm on top of the budget situation so I may as well do it now.

The only time I think it'll really make a difference outside is in minor crashes. I've had problems in other countries before (not on a bike) where not having all my papers in perfect order lost me myl rights.Here it seems that in major crashes the non-local or richest person is always at fault.I'll do what I can to cover my bases. Heard a sad story about a young girl who was scootering around last weekend, no helmet, papers, nothing. Had to abort overtaking on a hard shoulder and smashed into another biker breaking his leg and killing herself. Now He's f_cked even though fully legal and plenty of people to prove that he was in the right.

Remember that question in the test: The parties in an accident may dispute the police report of the accident in the peoples court. The answer was false.

Who is OP? Old People?

OP means original poster, in this case, you.

I'm not sure I follow your logic... No registration means no insurance .. Insurance works even outside your resident city. I don't understand what steve is talking about .. Excuse my rudeness, but I call bull' .. Your insurance covers you nationwide.

[Steve_R]

Here's how I see it. Your drivers license and insurance are good nationwide, but the actual bike registration, i.e. the license plate is not.

The evidence to support this view comes from the many signs in other cities that say 'No wai di bikes allowed' The rule applies for cars in certain situations and places also, for example in Shanghai they don't allow the wai di plates on the elevated roads during rush hour

Every city or 'shi' generally makes their own rules, and it's too complicated to know in advance what each jurisdiction wants or doesn't want with the bikes. When we're talking cross-country trips, there could easily be dozens of jurisidictions crossed. As a general rule, if the police wanted to stop a bike or a car from out-of-state, they could easily do so and say that this particular city requires XYZ or else you pay a fine -- whether that rule is true or not, as it would be too difficult for an out-of-towner to know the true rules anyway.

That being said, of course registration is better than no registration, but the point is that China isn't really set up to handle cross-country bike trips, or long distance trips in general for that matter. So if the guy wants a quick trip and isn't taking the highways, then it's a minimal risk and he may as well not bother registering. Just my couple of fen worth.

[euphonius]

Dear Steve,

With all due respect, I think your logic is flawed. I've ridden extensively in China with my Shanghai plate, including through cities with bike bans. Just because a city bans bikes does not overrule your own responsibility (to yourself and your pillion as well as to the law and society) to be licensed, registered/plated and insured. The national traffic law requires that motor vehicles have licenses, though this gets dodgy at smaller displacements. If you take out a peasant in some rural place, and are not licensed and registered, national and provincial law are still in effect. Your insurance will be void and you stand an excellent chance in the current enforcement environment of being deported. Why on earth would you endorse taking this risk just because some cities have banned bikes? As Mr Spock would say, "illogical."

As for the magnitude of the risk of taking out a peasant in some rural place, you may have superhuman riding skills, but for us mere mortals, the chances of bad shit happening are actually quite high. And they rise exponentially in bad weather and darkness. Being a newb like clegg further boosts the chances of mayhem. Add a pillion as clegg will do, and they go even higher because of the pilot's compromised ability to control the bike.

Oh, one more thing: Would you consider ever riding unregistered or unlicensed or uninsured in your own home country? We foreigners are guests in this country, and have an obligation to obey local laws, even if they are hackneyed or haphazard or illogical. If you get arrested, burned or broken, or take someone else's life or cause injury while flaunting the law, there's blowback for all of us.

thanks for listening.
cheers

[Lao Jia Hou]

We foreigners are guests in this country, and have an obligation to obey local laws, even if they are hackneyed or haphazard or illogical. If you get arrested, burned or broken, or take someone else's life or cause injury while flaunting the law, there's blowback for all of us.

Yup - what he said!

+1

[slabo]

I promised I will writeup some safety tips so here it goes.

Normally you shouldn't be replace forum advice for professional, hands on training. But you're here in China, and you're going to ride anyway. I think I know what you're going through, so I'll took the time to write what I did to survive on the road. I'm from Beirut, Lebanon. Traffic is a mix of civilized, random, boring, scary... Roads are also a mix of twisty narrow mountain roads, or pothole ridden city roads. A bit like Chinese roads in a way. All the better training ..

gn250

I spent a few years in Beirut, Lebanon, and IMHO there is nowhere in the world where drivers are more insane (although I've heard that Saudi is even worse). Chinese drivers are stars compared to the Lebanese. I was told that the reason for insane Lebanese drivers is because during their lengthy civil war, it was literally a life/death situation of keeping your car moving. A stopped car was a sniper's target. Today, the practice continues, and cars frequently mount the sidewalk, completely ignore traffic lights, drive on the wrong side, and so on ... to a level that makes China look downright civilized.

That was a long time ago, but I even today it's still true in some parts of the country.

Anyway, back to motorcycles ... I learned back in the summer of 2006 on my own. Beirut, and whole country was being bombed and I had little else to do but stare at a computer screen to keep my sanity. I was one of the few lucky who still had internet connection at the time(I worked for one of the biggest ISPs). I can't take an MSF course, but there were plenty of videos discussing various crashes. I spared none, all the while I didn't even have a bike, and really, I've never tried even a scooter. After 2 months, I bought a second hand 400cc cruiser. You should have seen the look on the guy's face when I asked him to ride the bike home for me. Then I started practicing what's already in my head.

When you start riding, part of your training will be to read traffic, anticipate other people's moves, know your limits and surroundings. Again, easier for me to do since I'm just used to reading hectic traffic. Headcheck before changing lanes; that means don't just rely on your mirrors, turn your head around, look for oncoming traffic. This is easier to do on my some bikes than others. Like on my bike, upright seating position.
One common crash I was talking about, picture this scenario :: Something happens and you panic, grab a fistful of brake, and swerve trying to avoid some obstacle. This results in a skid, i.e. your wheel locked with respect to the bike, but still sliding along the tarmac. After that, you either highside, or lowside. Both very ugly. If you anticipate this happening, you can program better reflexes. Really, when it happens, you have no time to think. So you have to know this in your bones. You can only slightly brake unless the bike is upright and pointing straight. This not limited to wet roads or corners.. So practice stopping. The key to braking is to try to brake gradually, meaning don't pull the brake all with all your might all at once. Use both brakes, 75% front 25% rear. Remember, you can't swerve and brake. You have a second to decide which one. When you want to brake hard, do it upright, in a straight line.

Learn to see bad road conditions. It's not just potholes and bumps, that's what cagers care about. You should also look out for leaves, sand, coal dust, water is not so bad.. To get a feeling of your bike sliding try wet marble!

Know your bike, you should know what sounds ok, and what doesn't.

Target fixation. Look at where you want to go, not what you're trying to avoid. This is the one that still gets even veteran riders.

Learn to drop the bike without your leg pinned under it. Bikes feel very light when they're upright, the weight might deceive you. If the bike starts to tip over and catch you off guard, you don't want your leg under it then. Also learn to lift a bike. Practice on grass. Here's how to pick up your bike after a drop.



Bike checkup before you go:: brakes, chain, tires .. kick stuff around.
also have a look here >> http://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/faq

There's plenty more to write.. but that's enough for now..

[corporal_clegg]

Thanks a lot man. Vid and links are exactly what I needed. I think most of it will come naturally just target fixation and weave\breaking and the emergency breaking will have to be drilled home. Hope you'll come for a ride with us, if the gods will it we will be in Yunnan in august

[Steve_R]

In terms of bike registration, for myself it's an eventual goal with a Shanghai C plate ... gradually working towards it, but will take time as it's not an easy task. Meanwhile, I want to ride the bike, and will do it unregistered or with fake plates until I get legal. It's a balance of risks and responsibilities, and this interim has lasted almost 3 years now.

Legal or not, getting into an accident in China is the worst thing that can possibly happen, and I try to have that mentality to avoid it at all possible costs.

If other foreigners want to ride a bike here, it's up to them. I just hope they understand the risks involved, and yes you're right, that could involve deportation. People are still going to take that risk. As much as I find this discussion interesting, I doubt this is going to accomplish much in changing behavior, and so we'll leave the decision to invidual riders about what they choose to do.

[bikerdoc]

Dear Steve,

With all due respect, I think your logic is flawed. I've ridden extensively in China with my Shanghai plate, including through cities with bike bans. Just because a city bans bikes does not overrule your own responsibility (to yourself and your pillion as well as to the law and society) to be licensed, registered/plated and insured. The national traffic law requires that motor vehicles have licenses, though this gets dodgy at smaller displacements. If you take out a peasant in some rural place, and are not licensed and registered, national and provincial law are still in effect. Your insurance will be void and you stand an excellent chance in the current enforcement environment of being deported. Why on earth would you endorse taking this risk just because some cities have banned bikes? As Mr Spock would say, "illogical."

As for the magnitude of the risk of taking out a peasant in some rural place, you may have superhuman riding skills, but for us mere mortals, the chances of bad shit happening are actually quite high. And they rise exponentially in bad weather and darkness. Being a newb like clegg further boosts the chances of mayhem. Add a pillion as clegg will do, and they go even higher because of the pilot's compromised ability to control the bike.

Oh, one more thing: Would you consider ever riding unregistered or unlicensed or uninsured in your own home country? We foreigners are guests in this country, and have an obligation to obey local laws, even if they are hackneyed or haphazard or illogical. If you get arrested, burned or broken, or take someone else's life or cause injury while flaunting the law, there's blowback for all of us.

thanks for listening.
cheers

Ditto to those comments!

We may find the laws, regulations and associated issues to be problematic or even discriminatory - that should not in anyway suggest that any one of us take a less than legal approach or worse trivialise a topic that can get serious pretty darn quick. Choosing to knowingly ride/drive unlicensed or with 100% fake plates, can have far reaching consequences beyond what might seem isolated and trivial. Recently the laws have changed with regards to license plates and using or altering them in any way shape or form, from being minor traffic violations to such acts being viewed and prosecuted as criminal acts - getting caught results in far more serious consequences. It's worth noting that many of the traffic cameras are using character recognition technology, especially true on the expressways, and traffic police also are more often carrying and using hand held e-terminals that can bring up licensing/plate data in real time. I've seen them being used first hand in the past several months.

The question to be asked is would I attempt to do such a thing or carry xxxx activity back in my country of citizenship? The answer would more often than not, be no, so why would one think to do so here. The kind of attitude that prevails in some instances when people from abroad start to flout the rules/laws/regulations here, often smacks of hypocrisy, in that many of us foreigners here complain about similar inadequacies and injustices of everyday rules, morals, norms, behaviours etc., yet this very behaviour that Stever_R condones, which is highly illegal (and now criminal) as somehow being acceptable is plan wrong. As a fellow road user, your next accident might just involve me or someone I know, while remote and highly unlikely, any incident involving you or your illegal activities can still provide a ripple effect that could have ramifications far greater than yourself, and thereby filter down to me at some point in time. Think universality.

Steve_R you make reference that you are working towards eventual legal licensing/plating, but it's a hard task and has taken you 3 years thus far, and you seem as though you are in no great hurry and are by accounts somewhat content with the status quo. I've got to ask what appears to be the hold up, since getting a plate and getting all legal takes about an hour to maybe a half/full day tops. Certainly that's been my experience in both SH where I used to reside many years ago, and down in Zhejiang.

As for the comment about out of province plates. I can see some of your argument, but having been in a no-fault accident where a local driver in a small village in another province drove out from between two sets of buildings onto the road ahead leaving me little option but for me to hit the vehicles left front guard, and leaving my motorcycle unrideable (although only superficially damaged). My being all legally plated, licensed, and insured worked 100% in favour. Local traffic police called in their boss (back from his leave on the first day of week-long public holiday) who in turn had to call his assistant, who had to call in a translator. The other driver was found 100% at fault (and he was). Had I not been able to tick all the boxes the driver may have had a defence, since he was claiming I'd hit his vehicle - even though he'd pulled out without even so much as a glance to his left.

Anyone contemplating not riding/driving legally in China is just asking for trouble sooner or later.

[Steve_R]

Hi Bikerdoc, these are fair points you bring up on your side of the debate, as are the points I bring up. But it doesn't look like any of us are going to change our relative actions on how we ride the bikes in China (legally or not) so we may as well not bother with a debate on this topic.

That being said, my perspective on this issue is *careful* riding and long-term legality. In other words, I am not advocating full-blown illegal law flaunting. It pains me to see newbies who get on a bike, blow past cops, and say "Hey look at me, screw your laws", with that kind of attitude, etc. Sounds absurd, but one of my colleagues at work does exactly this. He goes really slowly in front of the cops so they can see him without a license plate, then yells at the cops and takes off full throttle. This guy is of Indian ethnicity, just for information's sake.

There are cases (see below) where illegal riding is regretable, but it's the only alternative. In this situation, the idea is to ride as carefully as possible, to be respectful of other road users, etc. Unfortunately, it becomes necessary to avoid police, but on rare occasions when stopped, the name of the game is to be polite.

As we know in China, things take forever to accomplish and lots of bureaucracy, paperwork, money, greasing the gears, etc. This isn't to say that registration is impossible, it's just very arduous and time consuming. It would be incorrect to even hint at the fact that getting something done in China is simple.

In my case, I first need to get an actual motorcycle license, and back home is the best place for that. Right now I have managed to get a car drivers license which also took ages, and the details would be too much to get into.

Meanwhile, everything I learned about motorcycles was right here in China. First it was two years of illegal scooter riding -- carefully, I will add, and it was of necessity that I got one, because there was no transport at the school I worked at. Later, the first bike I got was in the hinterlands of Chongqing, I figured out how to ride on the spot, then rode the bike with me back to Shanghai across country.

There is more to learn here, actually unlearn, when I go back home and do the motorcycle tests and safety courses. If all goes well, more bureaucracy will be involved to transfer the license to a Chinese one in addition to my existing car license. Then there are issues with housing registration, and the location of the new house I moved to which should be valid since it's outside the middle ring road.

Long story short, I should be street legal here in China by the end of this year. Meanwhile, I still ride illegally until it no longer becomes necessary to do it.

The whole home country vs. China argument doesn't work because in your home country it is actually a relatively simple task to register a motorcycle, and the legalities are straightforward. There's no need to ride illegally back home, because you can actually do it legally.

[slabo]

steve, good luck man, you must be finding life very tough indeed ..