Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities

[lightend]

Actually is there are problem? Really it's not jealousy? Shoot down ebikes because they don't pay the same taxes, licensing and insurance as you?

nope its not jealousy, all the legal expenses ie plates, insurance etc etc for a new bike last summer (for the trip) was around 7-800rmb (Anhui, Huainan plates)
as to 'is there a problem'
There really is a problem, as they will come up to a red light and ignore it if there is no one standing there actually stopping them.
having cars break the rules is bad, but at least a car is large enough to be easily seen when they run a red, a ebike with its lights off to save electricity during night time is not the same thing. (I dont have a car here so dont think for 1 moment I am at all biased in this respect).
During rush hour the amount of times I have been forced to do emergency stops and swerving due to ebikes just driving out is unreal.

Also they freely drive the wrong way down roads and bike lanes.

So what I am really getting at is this, There are more than enough dangers on the road with cars, trucks and people walking out/ jumping barriers, road quality, items on the roads and all the like without having a poor mans motorbike (aka ebike) doing stupid things because they only had to walk into a ship, pay some money and drive out without any practical experience or instruction what so ever.

In the UK if you drive an ebike and it goes faster than 10 or 12mph you need a motorbike license.

While in China some people dont sit their tests or anything like that, at least if it was there, the more law abiding citizens wouldnt break the law (especially if there were penalties equal to driving a motorbike or car without a license), So this would take a vast majority of zero trained dangers off the road.


You are right when you say they couldn't do things like they could in the west, this is not for the reason you stated but more because basic road safety (as we would call it common seance, but thats only because its been drilled into us from such a young age) is lacking in many people here.

Education shouldnt start in school, I remember my mum clearly telling me and showing me what is dangerous and what is safe. So while the schools could help, parents are where it should of started, but it clearly never did, perhaps because the older generation never had a problem with cars. motorbikes or ebikes. Massive roads and only a few bikes on them. Then China changed very rapidly and grandparents, parents and children havent been educated on how to stay alive and stay safe in the new China.

Education VIA the TV to get the message across isnt the answer, having practical driving test is the only way to be sure people have the foundations for safe driving, and having fines behind that is the only way to make sure they continue to obey the rules.

It may seem stupid and just adding red tape to an already red tape bound country, but thats the price for advancing at such a quick rate. A person is clever but people are stupid.

[bigdamo]

Interesting to note back here in my small state in OZ they just released a transport report confirming motorcycles are a very valid form of transport and good for the environment.Straight away people were discussing the safety of motorcycles with the people who didn't ride motorcycles saying how dangerous they are and people who ride motorcycles saying the most dangerous thing to motorcycles are people who drive cars not being aware of the motorcycles riding on the road around them.There are alot of motorcycles here for good reason it is motorcycle heaven.

Ebike's were/are one of my most hated things in China.They truly must enforce some form of licensing and registration for certain Ebikes.I would like to see the statistics for accidents for Ebikes especially for the young and old people who have no road sense.

Hey little Johnny/old Ronny here's your new Ebike off you go oh by the way don't go over 10kmh even though the bloody thing does 30kmh silently and has poor brakes.

The powers that be probably won't do this.Life's cheap in China.

[Lao Jia Hou]

In the UK if you drive an ebike and it goes faster than 10 or 12mph you need a motorbike license.

I think there is already a law on the Chinese books that says an e-bike/e-scooter that is capable of going faster than some amount of speed (I think it is 20 kph, but I am not sure) is regarded as a motorcycle and must be plated, and the driver licensed.

Enforcement? Zero.

I can't really see how they could enforce it - because I doubt policemen are going to hop on e-scooters to see how fast they will go. Also, if enforcement started, people would purchase bikes with a "rated top speed" of 19 kmh (assuming manufacturers would be honest) and then simply modify them to go faster.

[Jonsims]

There is no doubt the driving levels in this country compared with the west are low. Accidents are widespread and to avoid them vigilance is really important. The best statistic would be the number of motorcycle deaths rather than those taken to hospital.
Police reports actually do ascribe responsibility according to the rule of the road but the burden of compensation is on the larger (more wheels) vehicle usually.
So if it were possible to get the statistics from the police reports this would be better.
You can't just say more motorcycle accidents as if these are all being caused by other road users the fault lies there.
Pretty much anyone on the road who gets a whiff of an accident goes to hospital. It's a complete abuse of the system and ultimately insurance of which premiums are rising rapidly.
The underlying problem is people here are very good at rote learning. A driving license is no difference to them. Any problems and "NO WORRIES THE COPS WILL SORT IT OUT AND THE INSURANCE WILL PAY". This is why in 17 years here I have seen absolutely no improvement in peoples driving skills.
Another reason motorcycles are kept out of cities is they were used in the past as illegal taxis and mobile bag snatchers.
Most of the new HARLEY RIDERS are wealthy and like the idea of owning a harley. They are generally very scared of riding these beasts and do so very very carefully. It is in Harley's interest to ensure it's rider stay alive. This is what I like about Harley China.
The illegal market is because China wants to develop it's own industry here before allowing the competition in. The high taxes are to discourage the import of bikes from overseas. The problem is they are easy to get into the country and half the price of a legal bike with many "solutions" to plating and insurance. The problem for China is that Harley is Harley. BMW is BMW and for this country to develop it needs to build it's own bikes. CF Moto is doing this but not many other companies are following suit.
The import tax issue is thorny and there is no amazing chinese marque emerging on the international market. The companies here realise that the best they can do is buy technology and brands from overseas and try their best within China. IT is also incredibly more profitable for them to do it here.
But the bottom line is MANAGEMENT
The gvt here needs to educate people on being road savvy. It does not. We get the incessant public information films overseas. Seat belts, Look Twice blah blah blah. There is very little of that here. It could change.
So it is easier for the authorities to simply ban/outlaw motorcycles for the present rather than deal with the problem. A similar issue can be made about ebikes and the problems they cause..

[Jonsims]

Somewhat of a virgin at only 17 years in china.. Ningbo to be exact. Whilst I understand your points you have to also understand you are living in a rather large cosmopolitan mega city compared with the red necks here where I live. Where you live there is some respect for the law, irrespective of how big your nose is. Here, if there is any problem, even if you have footage of some twerp running you down, you will be very lucky to get anything going your way because you are not chinese and the bignoses have all the money.
Racism? Damn right. Now here we have COP assistants. They look like cops almost but have no power by law, but possess even bigger racist chips and are not bothered by throwing rocks at you.
I'm not saying this is a daily issue and a nice thing here is there are still many cops here who are able to see reason. However the norm is, if the issue involves another Chinese person, then reason goes out the window.
There are no more jerks here than in any other country but I have the same way to deal with jerks. Make their life miserable for the time they are trying to do that to me. I do not worry about verbally abusing them and I don't really care about the consequences. If I have broken the law they can fine me. If they are just trying to stamp their authority they are going to have to work very hard for it. In fact one time I made such a big scene that they got the local Chief of police over who told me just to go away.. no problems. Jerks do not get away with jerkism in my life. At 53 I expect people to be reasonable. If they are not I can be a lot more unreasonable than they can be.

Having lived in China for 22 years now, I remember the days when Beijing and other cities had virtually no private cars, and we privileged foreigners with our black plates could drive pretty much any way we pleased, anywhere, anytime. I did my best to obey the law even back then, though many laowai indulged in these privileges with great impunity.

I stand by my comment about being polite. Here's why. The cops doing the enforcement did not make these rules, but they have the difficult task of enforcing them when the standing committee or whoever decides it wants to inflict its authority on us. I've posted about seeing, with my own eyes, an unlicensed scooter actually run down a cop who was trying to collar him, and I'll admit I entertained thoughts of killing the futhermucker there and then.

Here's the deal: These crackdowns create a tone that we, motorcyclists, are somehow scofflaws or criminals or worse. I don't want to be lumped into that category. So I smile and salute to every cop I see while riding. I sometimes even stop to chat with them. When I do get stopped, I'm very friendly and commiserate with them, and urge them to be careful of the unlicensed riders who are willing to do just about anything -- even run a cop down -- to avoid being called to account for being unlicensed or otherwise illegal.

No, I don't like having my bike turned into an ATM, but it's not the guys in blue who are doing that. So please, for the sake of all legal riders and even the illegal riders, show some kindness to these guys, and maybe, just maybe, it will help to keep any latent sadistic streak at bay.

On the other hand, let your anger flare about "the injustice of it all" and all you will do is reinforce the cops' perception that we foreigners think we're above the law.

It's not sanctimony, it's called karma banking. Make a deposit today!

cheers

[ZMC888]

I think Jonsims has really hit the nail on the head with analysis. The problem with China is there are so many people in China, that enforcing any law has minimal effect. Over the years they have figured out the only way to make any effect on road use or habits is have an absolute zero tolerance purge. The problem with this it robs people of their freedom. Yes, banning motorcycles completely is a very effective way to stop unregistered, uninsured, unlicensed riders bag snatchers and illegal motorcycle taxis, but taking away people's freedom to ride in a city is much worse.

And it's the same for ebikes forcing licensing, registration and insurance won't work unless the police are 100% committed, and it's just not a priority because ebikes are so low on the food chain, and there are just too many of them. So what what would most likely happen is they are completely banned, and that's just not a place I want to go. It's not because I have any love for ebikes, I don't understand them at all.

China needs much better public education on road use, from inside the family, school and on TV in newspapers. What they have at the moment is 'drive civilized, walk civilized' or look what happens when you have an accident because you didn't 'drive civilized', but little underlying concept of what driving civilized actually is.

[euphonius]

China needs much better public education on road use, from inside the family, school and on TV in newspapers. What they have at the moment is 'drive civilized, walk civilized' or look what happens when you have an accident because you didn't 'drive civilized', but little underlying concept of what driving civilized actually is.

This is precisely what's needed -- ongoing public education, "propaganda" if you will, that rewards and praises compliance and scorns and shames misbehavior. It's already illegal for an ebike, or bicycle, or anyone else to ride/drive against the flow of traffic, to cross lanes without certain precautions and conditions being met, to exhibit careless behavior. But ebike riders and bicyclists and pedestrians are oblivious to this, and don't give a second thought to doing whatever they want, which almost always is based on the dictum: The closest route between two points is a straight line. Licensed drivers and riders are not much better.

I do think there could be some means of "enforced education" -- not a test administered by ZMC's baijiu-swilling official -- but a requirement that every ebike, and perhaps even every bicyclist, take some sort of course, presumably online, possibly taught in schools for kids and in community centers for retirees, that is a precondition for taking an ebike or bicycle out on the public roads. Funny example, but back in the early 1990s, people registering to marry had to go watch a one-hour sex education video, and show evidence of having done so at the marriage registry. (Maybe Felix and Panda can tell us if that's still the case.) I recently had a moving violation in northern California -- crossed the double yellow in my old Toyota truck in a gorgeous set of twisties, and CHP guy knew precisely where I would do it -- and apart from a stiff fine (north of $300) I was given the chance to take an online safety course to keep the violation off my public record, and thus hidden from my insurance company. There are hundreds of companies licensed to offer these courses, which cost maybe $15 and take a few hours to complete. This obviously has become a cottage industry in itself, but the result is that people are exposed to important safety teachings that could make them better drivers, and make the roads safer.

Final word: During my first years in Shanghai, all bicycles WERE licensed, and this was done in a 2 minute procedure at the point of sale, the bicycle shop. The record of my purchase went into a police computer, and I had lovely little Shanghai plates on my bicycles. Then the city just dropped this, probably because it had no real impact on safety or theft because it had become bureaucratic with no safety training or followup.

Chinese people do want to have a safer, more civilized and orderly society. But corner-cutting has become the norm. It takes intensive public education, coupled with some toothy enforcement, to rein in the scofflaws. This is true anywhere, not just in China.

cheers

[Jonsims]

I did some digging on line for some death statistics.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18667123 ... states that in 2005 some 26,000 people died in motorcycle accidents in China.
http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html .. gives a figure of just under 5,000 for US in 2006.
Multiply the USA figure by five for comparable population statistics and the figures are actually quite close.
If this is true it is very interesting. Can we take the Chinese statistics at face value?

[ChinaV]

Can we take the Chinese statistics at face value?

I think the only thing that would lend credence to those numbers would be Americans ride big bikes at fast speeds and Chinese ride tiny bikes at low speeds. The chances of a person dying at 60km/h are far less than 120 km/h.

All figures in China are suspect, just like the laws, because each region of this country is its own fiefdom. They never report honest figures to a central body, and then the central body that represents the "face" of the nation has to gloss them over to save face. Just look at the bullshit hiding in that report "up to 122,300 in 2003, which was the highest, and then gradually decreased." F#$% me, I was here in 2003 - 2005 and all I saw was more and more and more bikes and accidents, how did the number decrease? Look at the percentage of motorcyclists killed vs injured in the USA (5000 killed vs 165,000 injured) yet China has 26,200 deaths vs 157,500 injured . Do the math and I think it's safe to say that China probably has over 500,000 motorcycle accidents per year. Hell, I saw one youtube video of a single intersection that had like twenty in 3 months.

As far as education goes, they need to teach morality, not skills. It's morals that make people yield to pedestrians and wave you through at an intersection.

Cheers!
ChinaV

[euphonius]

Good initiative, Jonsims.

I would not be surprised if motorcycle mortality rates in China are comparable to US rates, or even lower. Don't forget -- the typical motorcycle profile in the US is a 650cc or bigger, and many are much, much bigger, and motorcycles routine ride on expressways at 80mph/130kph. Motorcycle accidents in the US are probably (conjecture here) far more traumatic to the rider than in China.

Other factors: With notable exceptions (er, certain classes of Harley rider come to mind), most US riders are much more safety conscious and generally dress for the crash (ATGATT), not for the weather. Helmets, on average, are far better, as is whatever other safety gear is worn. The driving environment in the US, even at much higher speeds, is generally safer because of higher levels of driver skill, responsibility and mutual respect, both among riders and drivers. Also, following an accident, the US surely has a substantial edge emergency response times and emergency room trauma treatment. (In China, your brains and guts may be spilling out, but somebody, not necessarily you, generally will have to stand in the cashier's line before treatment begins.)

That's all for motorcycles, which do require training and licensure in both countries.

As for ebikes, I'd bet my last nickel that the death rates in China for ebike riders/passengers far exceed those of motorcyclists, mainly because the bikes are of such inferior quality (yet still go plenty fast) and because the riders generally are so stupidly cavalier about their own safety. How many times have you seen an ebike rider with his or her legs crossed, barreling the wrong way down the road, talking on a cell phone with one hand. I've seen young mothers holding their babies on an ebike, riding down a busy country road, talking on their cell phones. Darwin definitely had a term for this, and it wasn't eugenics.

cheers