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  1. #11 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZMC888 View Post
    This is the kind of propaganda Chinese car drivers love, and examples can very easily be found with such a large population. A young Chinese boy only 16 dies in motorcycle accident, how terrible it is, how upset the family are. The family down the road who lost their son in a car crash isn't mentioned as banning cars what is trying to be achieved with the propaganda here. Motorcycles are dangerous, they simply must be banned....until you delve further....Boy had no training, experience or protective clothing. Was riding an illegal motorcycle stolen from Hong Kong which had been rebuilt incorrectly and had been dropped and had a bent frame. Also to save money the bike had incorrect sized cheap rear tire and a very worn to slick front tire, and the motorcycle was being ridden in the rain...

    With adequate training and experience motorcycling can be very safe, of course this training is very hard to come by in China. Most good Chinese riders I have met have an aware mental state and a history of riding motocross.
    No propaganda on this one.No one saying anything bad against motorcycles here nothing in the media.This is just the way it is here.

    Possibly the people on here are paranoid against people taking away there right to legally ride a motorcycle in parts of China?

    My sister works in the casualty dept of one of the hospitals.She told me.Her husband used to ride a motorcycle no problems now has a car(come another month motorcycles,bikes will be put away for the winter Car you can use all year).

    If you think motorcycling is safe even if you have the proper training your kidding yourself.

    As my friend says"It's the ones who don't see you and you don't see them that get you"

    To many near misses for me luckily I am getting better in old age but I still know it's a dangerous sport/hobby.

    All the training in the world is going to do you no good if the other road users don't respect/Look out for you.Doesn't matter which country your in although China is extremely bad for that.

    You have an accident on a motorcycle with another vehicle and a very strong chance your going to hospital(some people just don't want to accept that fact) .Have an accident in a car with another vehicle and you are probably going to walk away.
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  2. #12 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euphonius View Post
    ZMC888 is spot on. This is nonsense on multiple levels. I'd bet that in bigdamo's town, and most any other city in China, there are more people brought into hospitals for treatment of injuries sustained in car "accidents" than in motorcycle accidents. Car drivers are endlessly mowing down pedestrians and bicyclists, and endlessly wrapping themselves in, around or under all manner of other vehicles and stationary objects, resulting in serious human carnage and property damage. But does anyone say this is cause to ban cars? Never!

    Cars are for important people and the price must be paid, while motorcycles are for the poor, for farmers, for unimportant people and hence are a serious nuisance to the important people.

    Such is life in the authoritarian people's republic, where the voice of reason has no place. Only propaganda holds sway.

    What's more, to elaborate on ZMC888's other point about the lack of skills training: I'd wager that most of those 20 people hurt in "motorcycle" accidents in Bigdamo's town were hurt not while riding a proper motorcycle, but while riding ebikes or other substandard deathtraps with brakes in poor repair, lights not working, tires underinflated, excessively heavy or large loads, multiple passengers, etc. In my experience, actual licensed motorcyclists on legal motorbikes actually do pretty well in traffic, though they are often victimized by drivers of cars. I strongly suspect it's all these unregulated unlicensed unplated two-wheel vehicles that are involved in most of the road carnage.

    But the propaganda machine lumps us all together as "motorcycles" and we'll pay the price.

    cheers.
    ZMC888 is not spot on.Motorcycling is a dangerous sport/hobby/transport if your in denial on this fact you will be one of the stats next.

    1:Are there more people bought in for "hospitals for treatment of injuries sustained in car "accidents" than in motorcycle accidents. "Who knows most of the people drive around at about 40 maybe 50kph in the city out in the countryside 50kph to 100kph. If a car hits another car at 40kph they walk away.If a car hits a motorcycle at 40kph driver walks away rider probably goes to hospital.

    "Car drivers are endlessly mowing down pedestrians and bicyclists," Yep sure are.But hey guess what so are motorcyclist to. Here you have to watch out for the arrogant motorcyclist who changes from vehicle road to pedestrian path at will not slowing down with reckless abandonment. I'm sure they have put alot of people in hospital.I know some of the people who they have put in hospital and who suffer from the injuries years after.Gee I can't understand why my friends who have been injured by motorcycles don't like motorcycles.

    "Cars are for important people and the price must be paid, while motorcycles are for the poor, for farmers, for unimportant people and hence are a serious nuisance to the important people."

    Maybe but what motorcycle do you have?are you poor,are you a farmer.

    Plenty of people up here have very expensive japanese and euro motorcycles.I know these people are riding these bikes at ridiculously high speeds out on the toll road(200kph+)That toll road goes from excellent condition to crap overnight due to the vast number of trucks using it at night.There a an accident waiting to happen.

    Yesterday I saw a person on a Yamaha WR450 2010 model wheeling up the street at speed in the city with reckless abandonment.He weren't no poor farmer. Gee I can't understand why some people hate motorcycles?

    "I'd wager that most of those 20 people hurt in "motorcycle" accidents in Bigdamo's town were hurt not while riding a proper motorcycle, but while riding ebikes or other substandard deathtraps with brakes in poor repair, lights not working, tires underinflated, excessively heavy or large loads, multiple passengers, etc."

    You would lose your wager.

    My sister and I don't count Ebikes they are more like a bike.

    Due to things happening up here a couple of months ago road blocks and police checks where ramped up to high.I'd say most autos have been given the once over here.

    "In my experience, actual licensed motorcyclists on legal motorbikes actually do pretty well in traffic, though they are often victimized by drivers of cars. I strongly suspect it's all these unregulated unlicensed unplated two-wheel vehicles that are involved in most of the road carnage."

    Do you have many motorcycles riding around in Shanghai? when I was there and in Beijing I did not see many motorcycles.

    There are plenty of legal bikers up here riding around on expensive foreign motorcycles doing arrogant crazy things.

    I don't know about the propaganda machine but most times it is a small minority that spoil it for the rest and feed the propaganda machine.These small minority then move on to another sport and stuff that and then move on.You also have people who just see the propaganda machine as coming after them and fight them all the way they rarely win.I have found it is better to work with the powers that be and even try to think what they are thinking so you can work together to solve the problem.Trust me you won't beat them.
    Last edited by bigdamo; 10-05-2011 at 05:12 AM.
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  3. #13 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru ZMC888's Avatar
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    Damo, cars kill...fact. Experienced properly trained motorcyclists very rarely get hurt.

    -My Aunt rode a motorcycle for 35 years and was an instructor, died of breast cancer 15 years ago.
    -My Uncle also rode for 35 years, died of a heart attack last year.
    -Same goes for 2 grandfathers one of whom was a dispatch rider in France during WW2.

    Yet when I was a child two different people I knew died in car crashes both were parents of friends. I have only known two motorcyclists that died when riding and they were both drunk riding.

    Although I have to agree to some extent about the recklessness of some riders. For me, having had ridden many smaller displacement bikes for so long and having toured on bigger bikes. In any European or Asian country a 500 twin is more than enough power for me, ever, and find it hard to keep me feet on the pegs if I open her up properly. I've ridden for 20 years and this is the biggest I would ever need, and I've owned 650s and rented 750s and 1000cc bikes. So I find it strange when people want R1s or Fireblades, Ducatis. Too much for a European road, much to much for China.

    Damo, I hate to say it but if you think motorcycling is unsafe you don't have enough training, although training takes many forms including reading books about techniques and talking to more experienced riders. Also I get a bitter feeling that as you aren't allowed to ride where you are, so misery loves company, eh?

    When you look at statistics for motorcycling deaths remember:

    1. How many were not at fault and were knocked down by cars/trucks etc
    2. How many were inexperienced or inadequately trained.
    3. How many were riding on a bike that was unsuitable for the road or their skill level.
    4. How many were drunk.

    In fact I have a compromise. If you must ban, then ban race replica bikes. They are good for race tracks, but actually not that good on a real road.
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  4. #14 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    MCM Chinese fellow td_ref's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZMC888 View Post
    If you must ban, then ban race replica bikes. They are good for race tracks, but actually not that good on a real road.
    Race replica bikes in my opinion only for German's autobahn.

    I think any vehicle goes faster than 200kmh doesn't make sense to Chinese road. On G roads, anything faster than 120 doesn't make sense too. Motorcycle in the end are not much difference than bicycle. Speeding definite kills.
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  5. #15 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZMC888 View Post
    Damo, cars kill...fact. Experienced properly trained motorcyclists very rarely get hurt.

    -My Aunt rode a motorcycle for 35 years and was an instructor, died of breast cancer 15 years ago.
    -My Uncle also rode for 35 years, died of a heart attack last year.
    -Same goes for 2 grandfathers one of whom was a dispatch rider in France during WW2.

    Yet when I was a child two different people I knew died in car crashes both were parents of friends. I have only known two motorcyclists that died when riding and they were both drunk riding.

    Although I have to agree to some extent about the recklessness of some riders. For me, having had ridden many smaller displacement bikes for so long and having toured on bigger bikes. In any European or Asian country a 500 twin is more than enough power for me, ever, and find it hard to keep me feet on the pegs if I open her up properly. I've ridden for 20 years and this is the biggest I would ever need, and I've owned 650s and rented 750s and 1000cc bikes. So I find it strange when people want R1s or Fireblades, Ducatis. Too much for a European road, much to much for China.

    Damo, I hate to say it but if you think motorcycling is unsafe you don't have enough training, although training takes many forms including reading books about techniques and talking to more experienced riders. Also I get a bitter feeling that as you aren't allowed to ride where you are, so misery loves company, eh?

    When you look at statistics for motorcycling deaths remember:

    1. How many were not at fault and were knocked down by cars/trucks etc
    2. How many were inexperienced or inadequately trained.
    3. How many were riding on a bike that was unsuitable for the road or their skill level.
    4. How many were drunk.

    In fact I have a compromise. If you must ban, then ban race replica bikes. They are good for race tracks, but actually not that good on a real road.
    ZMC,Cars and motorcycles kill...Fact

    My friend who I used to race with back home was a Experienced properly trained motorcycle instructor with 40 years experience racing both dirt and road and had been teaching/training motorcyclists for many years.He died on his bike a couple of years ago.Exited a corner just a bit to wide but still in his lane but a car was cutting in just abit to tight and clipped him. That's all it takes .

    I know of many friends injured and killed on motorcycles to many to mention here none of them where drunk.All where properly trained.You have to be in Australia now to get your license.Most did rider training courses of some form or another.

    I have enough training started riding Motorcycles when I was about 8 or 10 years old to long ago for me to remember.

    Started racing at 14 or 15 years old.Had to do training(2 hours every weekend for a year) so I could go and race.

    Went and got my road license at 17 years old got training didn't have to but my father made me.

    Went and raced MX for many years did a few MX camps while racing then switched to racing Enduro's got training in that.

    Stopped racing had a few years off the bike went and got my road license(let it lapsed)This time you have do a 2 day course come back and do a test both on rider skills in a controlled environment and a test out on the road in about a month. That is were I was taught that motorcycles are dangerous you can get nailed by other road users real easy.Something I don't think you understand.

    Started motorcycle trials competition thought I would nail that quick. Never did get it right but that is the best motorcycle control training you will get(did a school on that to).Made it to c grade no way I want to ride B or A grade way to dangerous.

    So yeah I think I have enough experience but you never stop learning.

    Am I bitter about not riding motorcycles.Motorcycles are in my and my families blood.My old man raced speedway as a passenger on outfits in the sixties(you don't get anymore dangerous than that at that time no margin for error there) I guess that is where I get my passion for racing.My wife doesn't like me riding motorcycles any where but she knows I am going to do it.Now she says don't tell her.Same as skiing Back Country here she doesn't like it but she knows I am going to do it.

    As I tell my wife it is safer going racing than just going for a ride on the road.

    I'll say it again it is other road users who will probably get you especially in China. You ride for longer enough and you are going to have an accident (just like driving a car someday your going to have an accident)just some people think there invincible maybe because they have training.

    "Mans got to know his limitations" In my old age I'm sort of learning mine.
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  6. #16 two more fen ... 
    Danger, Will Robinson! Lao Jia Hou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diefascanda View Post
    Íîâûå ØÒÐÀÔÛ ÃÈÁÄÄ. Âñòóïÿò óæå ñîâñåì ñêîðî
    Hmmmm ... not sure I agree with those two rubles.

    Again, I don't know what I don't know, and that may kill/injure me, but what I do believe is this ...

    1) Many years of riding experience actually only means ONE thing ... I am older. I am no longer 20 years old ... my limbs are weaker ... my bones are more brittle ... I don't heal as quickly ... my reactions are slower ... my eyesight is poorer ... my center of gravity seems to be moving from my chest to my waist ... and there might be a few dead neurons. Slow bikes suit me just fine.

    2) Many miles of riding experience has to be tempered with how those miles were accumulated. There is no comparison between 500 miles on a GL1800 (with cruise control) across interstates, and 5 miles on a dirt bike in single tracks up/down steep slopes. I always tip my helmet to skilled off-road riders - those guys/gals amaze me with their bike control skills.

    3) Like a coin toss ... all prior tosses have no bearing on whether the next one lands heads or tails. Every time I get on my bike, I am flipping a coin. I can control my bike, but I can't control the thousands of other things happening around me.

    4) Motorcycling is an inherently risky sport/activity. The risks can be substantially reduced by proper training, proper equipment and proper practices ... just like scuba diving and sky diving. Ever see someone jump out of an airplane with their parachute being held, all bunched up, in their arms ... saying "ah, good enough"? Ever see a scuba diver go down with a faulty air hose ... saying "ah, no problem, it'll be fine"? Ever see a motorcyclist get on a bike without a helmet?

    5) During my first year of riding in China, I had more close calls than my prior decades of riding experience. I've necessarily developed a passive/aggressive style of riding in China, where I am always trying to keep my distance from traffic/people/animals/road hazards. If I rode back home how I ride here, well, I'd probably be under a lifetime ban by now.

    Despite the risks, it sure beats sitting in a crowded bus.
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  7. #17 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Jincheng 250 Bucko's Avatar
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    bigdamo, I think you're missing the point that ZMC is trying to make. The way that I at least interpret it is not that "it's impossible to get hurt on a motorcycle if you're properly trained with a lot of experience" but rather that quoting statistics about motorcycle accidents is NOT an argument for the banning of motorcycles. The original post and the title of this thread is: "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities". THIS is what is being called propaganda- citing a totally ambiguous and arbitrary statistic without offering any substantiated background or context for that statistic. Important information would be: how long had those people been riding, what were they riding, who was ultimately at fault, was the other person in a car, were they licensed, as well as the sample size as was stated in earlier comments. It's a completely bogus argument to say that since there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, they should ban motorcycles. Drugs are illegal in most countries but that doesn't stop the drug related deaths and violence. The solution is, as Lao Jia Hou indicated in a previous response, proper training, licensing, and regulation rather than driving the sport/hobby/form of transportation under ground. You are fortunate enough to be able to use your car in the winter to travel, many in China are not.

    The point is not that you don't have to be killed on a motorcycle if you're actually a good driver. Of course it's easier for you to get killed on a motorcycle than in a car since you're more exposed. However good and well trained motorcyclists are inherently more cautious because of that risk. There is a large amount of moral hazard inherent in driving a car, which is what makes them more dangerous. Cars take more risks since they're probably more safe. Back home, if you've taken a motorcycle safety course, your car insurance actually goes down about 10% on top of your motorcycle insurance going down, simply because the insurance companies are aware that this makes you a better driver.

    I just recently finished a 1,700km trip down the coast from Beijing to Qingdao and I was appalled at the state of the 4+ wheeled drivers out there; it made me grateful that I live in Beijing. There is absolutely no sense of how to deal with motorcyclists on the road. I can't tell you how many times I was pushed out of my lane or had oncoming traffic passing in my lane or cars making left turns out of intersections when I was driving. Maybe the problem is a complete lack of education for drivers on both sides of the situation. I often found myself wishing I had packed some ball bearings to keep in pocket to teach lessons the old fashioned Hell's Angel way... I can also tell you that I found far more accidents with cars involved over those 7 days of driving than motorcycles (including even the e-bikes or small motorcycles/scooters), even from a percentage perspective.
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  8. #18 Re: two more fen ... 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou View Post
    Hmmmm ... not sure I agree with those two rubles.

    Again, I don't know what I don't know, and that may kill/injure me, but what I do believe is this ...

    1) Many years of riding experience actually only means ONE thing ... I am older. I am no longer 20 years old ... my limbs are weaker ... my bones are more brittle ... I don't heal as quickly ... my reactions are slower ... my eyesight is poorer ... my center of gravity seems to be moving from my chest to my waist ... and there might be a few dead neurons. Slow bikes suit me just fine.

    2) Many miles of riding experience has to be tempered with how those miles were accumulated. There is no comparison between 500 miles on a GL1800 (with cruise control) across interstates, and 5 miles on a dirt bike in single tracks up/down steep slopes. I always tip my helmet to skilled off-road riders - those guys/gals amaze me with their bike control skills.

    3) Like a coin toss ... all prior tosses have no bearing on whether the next one lands heads or tails. Every time I get on my bike, I am flipping a coin. I can control my bike, but I can't control the thousands of other things happening around me.

    4) Motorcycling is an inherently risky sport/activity. The risks can be substantially reduced by proper training, proper equipment and proper practices ... just like scuba diving and sky diving. Ever see someone jump out of an airplane with their parachute being held, all bunched up, in their arms ... saying "ah, good enough"? Ever see a scuba diver go down with a faulty air hose ... saying "ah, no problem, it'll be fine"? Ever see a motorcyclist get on a bike without a helmet?

    5) During my first year of riding in China, I had more close calls than my prior decades of riding experience. I've necessarily developed a passive/aggressive style of riding in China, where I am always trying to keep my distance from traffic/people/animals/road hazards. If I rode back home how I ride here, well, I'd probably be under a lifetime ban by now.

    Despite the risks, it sure beats sitting in a crowded bus.
    +1 ...ditto
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  9. #19 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucko View Post
    bigdamo, I think you're missing the point that ZMC is trying to make. The way that I at least interpret it is not that "it's impossible to get hurt on a motorcycle if you're properly trained with a lot of experience" but rather that quoting statistics about motorcycle accidents is NOT an argument for the banning of motorcycles. The original post and the title of this thread is: "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities". THIS is what is being called propaganda- citing a totally ambiguous and arbitrary statistic without offering any substantiated background or context for that statistic. Important information would be: how long had those people been riding, what were they riding, who was ultimately at fault, was the other person in a car, were they licensed, as well as the sample size as was stated in earlier comments. It's a completely bogus argument to say that since there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, they should ban motorcycles. Drugs are illegal in most countries but that doesn't stop the drug related deaths and violence. The solution is, as Lao Jia Hou indicated in a previous response, proper training, licensing, and regulation rather than driving the sport/hobby/form of transportation under ground. You are fortunate enough to be able to use your car in the winter to travel, many in China are not.

    The point is not that you don't have to be killed on a motorcycle if you're actually a good driver. Of course it's easier for you to get killed on a motorcycle than in a car since you're more exposed. However good and well trained motorcyclists are inherently more cautious because of that risk. There is a large amount of moral hazard inherent in driving a car, which is what makes them more dangerous. Cars take more risks since they're probably more safe. Back home, if you've taken a motorcycle safety course, your car insurance actually goes down about 10% on top of your motorcycle insurance going down, simply because the insurance companies are aware that this makes you a better driver.

    I just recently finished a 1,700km trip down the coast from Beijing to Qingdao and I was appalled at the state of the 4+ wheeled drivers out there; it made me grateful that I live in Beijing. There is absolutely no sense of how to deal with motorcyclists on the road. I can't tell you how many times I was pushed out of my lane or had oncoming traffic passing in my lane or cars making left turns out of intersections when I was driving. Maybe the problem is a complete lack of education for drivers on both sides of the situation. I often found myself wishing I had packed some ball bearings to keep in pocket to teach lessons the old fashioned Hell's Angel way... I can also tell you that I found far more accidents with cars involved over those 7 days of driving than motorcycles (including even the e-bikes or small motorcycles/scooters), even from a percentage perspective.
    Bucko i said "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" not "this is the reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities"

    Do you think the Chinese government are going to do a full blown analyst of motorcycle statistics I doubt it.Even if they did you and I will not have access to it.

    Where did I say they should ban Motorcycles?

    I read here that other people think they should ban cafe racers I think that is pretty hypocritical.What my bikes Ok but those high powered cafe racers are not.Plenty of roads up here you could use one just not at 200kph+ on the toll roads.

    No doubt proper training and applying that training in proper context certainly minimizes the risks. Just that I see some people do the training and they now think they know everything.

    The people up here have do alot of training to get there car license doesn't look to me there an expert driver.Same goes for some motorcyclists back home after alot of training yeah they can ride better but some think that after all that training there now an expert and push the limits sometimes with disastrous results.That's a fact.

    Another bloke I know was a motorcycle postie(postman) he had to do a four day motorcycle training course once every 18 months and a 5 day course before he started so he was extremely well trained.He had been a postie for 3 years riding to work one day on his motorcycle riding up between the cars and trucks to the traffic lights he clipped or the car clipped his handlebars(he is dead so he couldn't tell the police what actually happened)tumbled off his bike under a b double truck back wheels truck ran over his chest and head didn't die straight away but 10 minutes latter.All the training didn't save him.

    Ive seen plenty of motorcyclists lose there license for speeding most are well trained even though they get a discount on insurance or discount on license fees if they have no traffic infringements in the last 5 years.

    By the way I don't have a car.

    It would be better to have a motorcycle aware program for car drivers and other road users implemented but that is not going to happen here.
    Last edited by bigdamo; 10-09-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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  10. #20 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Crazy Jon Jonsims's Avatar
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    One major reason they banned motorcycles from most cities is because they tend to act as illegal taxis. They are cheaper obviously than regular taxis and do not pay tax. Not only that a lot of passengers get injured with no chance of compensation.. Another reason that motorcycles are banned from cities is they indulge in crimes, mostly handbag snatching.. The numbers of accidents is small compared with that of the dreaded ebike. At least with the motorcycles people had to pass a test and have a "registered" vehicle on the road and carry insurance. I'm sure everyone agrees that Ebikes need to be insured, tested regularly and some sort of proficiency test taken and helmets worn and one person per bike!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH..
    The problem lies not just with motorcycles or ebikes, cars, etc.. The problem is a system where the majority of people believe that any problems will be sorted out by the police and that the insurance will pay. There is no emphasis on the need for self responsibility. Also there is a serious lack of government sponsored "public information ads" on the TEEVEE.
    They could charge an annual fee for bikers wishing to enter cities and issue a special license which must be shown at all times.. This licence could be several thousand RMB.
    It would be great for courier companies who need speed and easy access to city centres and posers like me who like to show off....
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