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  1. #21 Re: two more fen ... 
    Crazy Jon Jonsims's Avatar
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    ditto.. but during my first years of riding in China I was stuck with the 750 Sidecar unit.. It's a heap of crap but hell.. saved my life many times....
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  2. #22 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Jincheng 250 Bucko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdamo View Post
    Bucko i said "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" not "this is the reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities"

    Do you think the Chinese government are going to do a full blown analyst of motorcycle statistics I doubt it.Even if they did you and I will not have access to it.

    Where did I say they should ban Motorcycles?

    I read here that other people think they should ban cafe racers I think that is pretty hypocritical.What my bikes Ok but those high powered cafe racers are not.Plenty of roads up here you could use one just not at 200kph+ on the toll roads.

    No doubt proper training and applying that training in proper context certainly minimizes the risks. Just that I see some people do the training and they now think they know everything.

    The people up here have do alot of training to get there car license doesn't look to me there an expert driver.Same goes for some motorcyclists back home after alot of training yeah they can ride better but some think that after all that training there now an expert and push the limits sometimes with disastrous results.That's a fact.

    Another bloke I know was a motorcycle postie(postman) he had to do a four day motorcycle training course once every 18 months and a 5 day course before he started so he was extremely well trained.He had been a postie for 3 years riding to work one day on his motorcycle riding up between the cars and trucks to the traffic lights he clipped or the car clipped his handlebars(he is dead so he couldn't tell the police what actually happened)tumbled off his bike under a b double truck back wheels truck ran over his chest and head didn't die straight away but 10 minutes latter.All the training didn't save him.

    Ive seen plenty of motorcyclists lose there license for speeding most are well trained even though they get a discount on insurance or discount on license fees if they have no traffic infringements in the last 5 years.

    By the way I don't have a car.

    It would be better to have a motorcycle aware program for car drivers and other road users implemented but that is not going to happen here.
    I don't know what you're correcting in my quote of what you said? I quoted the title exactly how you said you said it. You said here is a reason. Other users called that propaganda. I was defending that claim given the way that that argument was presented, which was out of context and with little substance. I would say a/the reason is that the Chinese government doesn't know how to handle the problem.

    I agree that it's hypocritical to ban one kind of motorcycle and not another. This is again where my comment comes into play about statistics. The initial post of yours about the 20 motorcycle accidents comes off as propaganda if you don't indicate what kind of bikes were involved in the accidents. Chances are, almost all of them were below 200cc. Thus it doesn't make sense to ban cafe racers as a way to solve the motorcycle accident problem when most of them are not cafe racers.

    As for the postie friend, I'm sorry to hear about his passing. It is very unfortunate when another biker loses their life like that especially even with proper training. However, that said, it is recommended that you probably shouldn't be riding the line between cars. Most of us do it of course, but it is inherently dangerous and any rider, especially with proper training, should be aware of that risk before engaging in it. By riding like this you are putting yourself in a countless number of cars' blind spots at a much higher relative speed to the other drivers. This is INCREDIBLY dangerous. Proper training would teach you this. Proper training teaches you that it's not how good of a driver you are but how bad other drivers are and thus you take the necessary precautions against these: honk at blind intersections and blind turns, don't ride the line, check your blind spots, don't be in others' blind spots, etc.

    I don't know what country you're talking about losing your license for speeding, but at least in the U.S. you would have to be speeding WELL over the speed limit to lose your license, and at those levels, I see nothing wrong with taking away that person's license, since as you've mentioned they give other bikers a bad name and are simply an accident waiting to happen regardless of your training.

    "the people up here have do alot of training to get there car license". Where is "up here" and what does that training actually entail? My guess would be not that much, and from what I know of the testing here in Beijing, it doesn't add up to much driving skills.

    About the car, I guess I just misread a previous post.

    Motorcycle aware programs are definitely possible in China. The central government has never shied away from PSAs. All you have to do is see the difference in drivers within Beijing and without. Most of that is largely do to efforts made during/for the olympics. The problem though is that to have such a program, the government would have to lend a certain amount of legitimacy to motorcyclists, which they don't want to do. So they'd rather ban them or restrict them then educate people on them. In other countries it's common to see "share the road" signs, etc. on highways. Here, all you see is the no motorcycles allowed sign as you ride past it. So rather than educate they restrict and ban, which in my opinion is wrong and asking for trouble.
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  3. #23 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucko View Post
    I don't know what you're correcting in my quote of what you said? I quoted the title exactly how you said you said it. You said here is a reason. Other users called that propaganda. I was defending that claim given the way that that argument was presented, which was out of context and with little substance. I would say a/the reason is that the Chinese government doesn't know how to handle the problem.

    I agree that it's hypocritical to ban one kind of motorcycle and not another. This is again where my comment comes into play about statistics. The initial post of yours about the 20 motorcycle accidents comes off as propaganda if you don't indicate what kind of bikes were involved in the accidents. Chances are, almost all of them were below 200cc. Thus it doesn't make sense to ban cafe racers as a way to solve the motorcycle accident problem when most of them are not cafe racers.

    As for the postie friend, I'm sorry to hear about his passing. It is very unfortunate when another biker loses their life like that especially even with proper training. However, that said, it is recommended that you probably shouldn't be riding the line between cars. Most of us do it of course, but it is inherently dangerous and any rider, especially with proper training, should be aware of that risk before engaging in it. By riding like this you are putting yourself in a countless number of cars' blind spots at a much higher relative speed to the other drivers. This is INCREDIBLY dangerous. Proper training would teach you this. Proper training teaches you that it's not how good of a driver you are but how bad other drivers are and thus you take the necessary precautions against these: honk at blind intersections and blind turns, don't ride the line, check your blind spots, don't be in others' blind spots, etc.

    I don't know what country you're talking about losing your license for speeding, but at least in the U.S. you would have to be speeding WELL over the speed limit to lose your license, and at those levels, I see nothing wrong with taking away that person's license, since as you've mentioned they give other bikers a bad name and are simply an accident waiting to happen regardless of your training.

    "the people up here have do alot of training to get there car license". Where is "up here" and what does that training actually entail? My guess would be not that much, and from what I know of the testing here in Beijing, it doesn't add up to much driving skills.

    About the car, I guess I just misread a previous post.

    Motorcycle aware programs are definitely possible in China. The central government has never shied away from PSAs. All you have to do is see the difference in drivers within Beijing and without. Most of that is largely do to efforts made during/for the olympics. The problem though is that to have such a program, the government would have to lend a certain amount of legitimacy to motorcyclists, which they don't want to do. So they'd rather ban them or restrict them then educate people on them. In other countries it's common to see "share the road" signs, etc. on highways. Here, all you see is the no motorcycles allowed sign as you ride past it. So rather than educate they restrict and ban, which in my opinion is wrong and asking for trouble.

    Pretty straight forward I said "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" " a" meaning there is a number of reasons. This is but one of them. If i said "here is the reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" that would be propaganda and ill informed.

    Ahh the old statistics game crap. Been involved in land access rights for motorcycles and MTB to know that one group can go and get statistics to support there cause and the other group can go and get statistics to support there cause both from qualified statistics companies.Gee funny that.

    I never said they were statistics I said my sister worked in the local hospital ( there version of causality dept to be precise but I didn't mention that) That is on average how many motorcyclists she admits a day.I also said there are two hospitals here and I don't know how many motorcycle the other hospital treats a day.I'm betting it would be more it is a better hospital.Go and waste your time getting stats.I'd say you won't find them and don't just do it for Beijing do it for the whole country.

    It is legal in Sydney,Australia to ride your motorcycle between cars and trucks which are stationary up to traffic lights.It is covered in your "proper training".

    Speeding 10kmh over the speed limit they can take your license if your points are nearly gone or the copper decides to make life hard for you. That's in Australia.The coppers are out in force now due to it being spring. Weather has warmed up and everyone is taking there motorcycles out for a run.So the coppers will blitz them at least for the next month.The coppers will even put it in the media that they are going to be targeting them and where and alot of motorcyclists with proper training will still go out and do stupid things and get caught and crash.

    Most of my friends who had done proper training where done doing 80kmh in a 60kmh zone some 100kph. Not hard to do as most bikes will do 80kmh in second gear.But yes there fault pay the price.But as I said just because you have done training doesn't mean your invisible or a total expert or have lapse of concentration.

    Up here Shihezi sorry it is not as well known as Beijing heard of Google.

    The learner car drivers that I know are putting in about 6 hours a week lessons varying between 1 and 3 months period.Defensive driving,Driving in all weather conditions and roar rules etc si what they are learning.

    Maybe some of us on here should have done the full motorcycle and car training/test rather than saying I'm fully trained in my own country let me sit the computer test and I'm good to go.Hell I might even go and do some more training here before I embark on the madness they call driving/riding here.

    I don't understand first you say

    "Motorcycle aware programs are definitely possible in China."

    then you say

    "the government would have to lend a certain amount of legitimacy to motorcyclists, which they don't want to do. So they'd rather ban them or restrict them then educate people on them."

    Which is it?

    Did you read all of my posts or did you just get all hot under the collar and started spitting chips when you saw "here is a reason motorcycles are barred in most cities"

    As i said before motorcycle training minimizes the risk but your not invincible.Its the ones you don't see who can get you.

    Once again where did I say ban motorcycles?
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  4. #24 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Jincheng 250 Bucko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdamo View Post
    Pretty straight forward I said "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" " a" meaning there is a number of reasons. This is but one of them. If i said "here is the reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" that would be propaganda and ill informed.

    Ahh the old statistics game crap. Been involved in land access rights for motorcycles and MTB to know that one group can go and get statistics to support there cause and the other group can go and get statistics to support there cause both from qualified statistics companies.Gee funny that.

    I never said they were statistics I said my sister worked in the local hospital ( there version of causality dept to be precise but I didn't mention that) That is on average how many motorcyclists she admits a day.I also said there are two hospitals here and I don't know how many motorcycle the other hospital treats a day.I'm betting it would be more it is a better hospital.Go and waste your time getting stats.I'd say you won't find them and don't just do it for Beijing do it for the whole country.

    It is legal in Sydney,Australia to ride your motorcycle between cars and trucks which are stationary up to traffic lights.It is covered in your proper training.

    Speeding 10kmh over the speed limit they can take your license if your points are nearly gone or the copper decides to make life hard for you. That's in Australia.The coppers are out in force now due to it being spring. Weather has warmed up and everyone is taking there motorcycles out for a run.So the coppers will blitz them at least for the next month.The coppers will even put it in the media that they are going to be targeting them and where and alot of motorcyclists with proper training will still go out and do stupid things and get caught and crash.

    Most of my friends who had done proper training where done doing 80kmh in a 60kmh zone some 100kph. Not hard to do as most bikes will do 80kmh in second gear.But yes there fault pay the price.But as I said just because you have done training doesn't mean your invisible or a total expert or have lapse of concentration.

    Up here Shihezi sorry it is not as well known as Beijing heard of Google.

    The learner car drivers that I know are putting in about 6 hours a week lessons varying between 1 and 3 months period.Defensive driving,Driving in all weather conditions and roar rules etc si what they are learning.

    Maybe some of us on here should have done the full motorcycle and car training/test rather than saying I'm fully trained in my own country let me sit the computer test and I'm good to go.Hell I might even go and do some more training here before I embark on the madness they call driving/riding here.

    I don't understand first you say

    "Motorcycle aware programs are definitely possible in China."

    then you say

    "the government would have to lend a certain amount of legitimacy to motorcyclists, which they don't want to do. So they'd rather ban them or restrict them then educate people on them."

    Which is it?

    Did you read all of my posts or did you just get all hot under the collar and started spitting chips when you saw "here is a reason motorcycles are barred in most cities"

    As i said before motorcycle training minimizes the risk but your not invincible.Its the ones you don't see who can get you.

    Once again where did I say ban motorcycles?
    Wow, you are significantly more hostile than is warranted for this forum or for this topic.

    Please work on your grammar. It would make your point(s) much easier to understand.

    I don't think anyone here would disagree with the fact that motorcycles are dangerous. Proper defensive driving tactics and driving intelligently, avoiding unnecessary risks, can however significantly minimize the danger of riding a motorcycle and in many instances, given the maneuverability of motorcycles, make them in some ways safer than cars. Training doesn't necessitate employing these tactics, but employing them does necessitate minimizing the risks.

    I personally love riding my motorcycle. It is much more preferable to taking the bus here in Beijing, and on top of that it's just a lot of fun. Riding here is a risk, but so is walking, riding a bike, breathing the air, drinking baijiu, or eating street food. I do what I can to minimize those risks using what education have on the matters and go on with my life.

    For anything else on this subject, I'll have to echo Lao Jia Hou's 5 points he offered in "2 more fen" and leave at that as your hostile and defensive attitude makes anymore constructive dialogue far too difficult.
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  5. #25 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucko View Post
    Wow, you are significantly more hostile than is warranted for this forum or for this topic.

    Please work on your grammar. It would make your point(s) much easier to understand.

    I don't think anyone here would disagree with the fact that motorcycles are dangerous. Proper defensive driving tactics and driving intelligently, avoiding unnecessary risks, can however significantly minimize the danger of riding a motorcycle and in many instances, given the maneuverability of motorcycles, make them in some ways safer than cars. Training doesn't necessitate employing these tactics, but employing them does necessitate minimizing the risks.

    I personally love riding my motorcycle. It is much more preferable to taking the bus here in Beijing, and on top of that it's just a lot of fun. Riding here is a risk, but so is walking, riding a bike, breathing the air, drinking baijiu, or eating street food. I do what I can to minimize those risks using what education have on the matters and go on with my life.

    For anything else on this subject, I'll have to echo Lao Jia Hou's 5 points he offered in "2 more fen" and leave at that as your hostile and defensive attitude makes anymore constructive dialogue far too difficult.
    Spoken like a true American.

    Should that be American grammar I should work on ?
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  6. #26 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Jincheng 250 Bucko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdamo View Post
    Spoken like a true American.

    Should that be American grammar I should work on ?
    Haha, when all else fails... time to bring out the American jokes.

    "Up here Shihezi sorry it is not as well known as Beijing heard of Google."
    American grammar, the Queen's grammar, whichever you like is fine with me.
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  7. #27 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
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    Ride safe! PAL
    **************************************************

    Moped, scooter drivers deadly

    Shanghai Daily Newspaper / Oct 14, 2011

    The frequent traffic accidents involving mopeds and scooters, many of them fatal, shed light on reckless drivers in the city, but enforcement is very difficult for authorities.

    The riders on mopeds and scooters running red lights, speeding or driving into car lanes, a common scene at busy crossroads, are a headache for traffic police who already are overwhelmed by the dangerous tactics of car and truck drivers on crowded roads.

    "The small mopeds can cause big trouble," Wang Denghai, traffic police chief in downtown Zhabei District, said yesterday.

    This year, traffic accidents involving bikes, mopeds and scooters have accounted for 269 deaths, more than 40 percent of all traffic fatalities in Shanghai. In most cases, riders should have borne at least as much responsibility as vehicle drivers, say police. Some officers worry that the situations "are getting worse."

    In a citywide crackdown yesterday, police spotted many moped and scooter riders driving recklessly and fearlessly at busy intersections, even with officers present. Maneuvering among moving vehicle flows at the crossing of Hutai and Hengfeng roads in Zhabei District, a moped tried to rush through after the light had turned red about 7am. The rider was stopped by an officer and fined 5 yuan (78 US cents).

    In most cases, of course, violators won't be stopped, as officers and traffic assistants simply watch them pass. Officers say they are hard to catch and stop one by one because of their sheer numbers.

    "They dash toward the roads just like a school of fish," said officer Yang Zhenqing in Zhabei District. "More often than not, they just run the red lights all together."

    At the busy intersection of Yuyuan and Wanhangdu road snear Jing'an Temple, traffic assistants sometimes stand on the pedestrian pass, or crosswalk, using their bodies to block the eager bikes and mopeds from crossing the line. "They are fast and seem to come out all of a sudden," said a driver.

    A migrant worker, surnamed Yan, a frequent moped rider, said he was hit and injured by another moped before the holiday and police ruled both shared responsibilities.

    The city now has more than 13 million mopeds, scooters and bikes. About 280,000 use gas and 3 million use electricity. Migrant workers have become the main owners of mopeds sand scooters. They usually do not have license plates or carry out-of-town ones, police said.

    Police said the top allowed speed for scooters and mopeds is 15 kilometers per hour. But officers found during routine checks that 80 percent of them exceed that speed.
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  8. #28 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Jincheng 250 Bucko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pal View Post
    Ride safe! PAL
    **************************************************

    Moped, scooter drivers deadly

    Shanghai Daily Newspaper / Oct 14, 2011

    The frequent traffic accidents involving mopeds and scooters, many of them fatal, shed light on reckless drivers in the city, but enforcement is very difficult for authorities.

    The riders on mopeds and scooters running red lights, speeding or driving into car lanes, a common scene at busy crossroads, are a headache for traffic police who already are overwhelmed by the dangerous tactics of car and truck drivers on crowded roads.

    "The small mopeds can cause big trouble," Wang Denghai, traffic police chief in downtown Zhabei District, said yesterday.

    This year, traffic accidents involving bikes, mopeds and scooters have accounted for 269 deaths, more than 40 percent of all traffic fatalities in Shanghai. In most cases, riders should have borne at least as much responsibility as vehicle drivers, say police. Some officers worry that the situations "are getting worse."

    In a citywide crackdown yesterday, police spotted many moped and scooter riders driving recklessly and fearlessly at busy intersections, even with officers present. Maneuvering among moving vehicle flows at the crossing of Hutai and Hengfeng roads in Zhabei District, a moped tried to rush through after the light had turned red about 7am. The rider was stopped by an officer and fined 5 yuan (78 US cents).

    In most cases, of course, violators won't be stopped, as officers and traffic assistants simply watch them pass. Officers say they are hard to catch and stop one by one because of their sheer numbers.

    "They dash toward the roads just like a school of fish," said officer Yang Zhenqing in Zhabei District. "More often than not, they just run the red lights all together."

    At the busy intersection of Yuyuan and Wanhangdu road snear Jing'an Temple, traffic assistants sometimes stand on the pedestrian pass, or crosswalk, using their bodies to block the eager bikes and mopeds from crossing the line. "They are fast and seem to come out all of a sudden," said a driver.

    A migrant worker, surnamed Yan, a frequent moped rider, said he was hit and injured by another moped before the holiday and police ruled both shared responsibilities.

    The city now has more than 13 million mopeds, scooters and bikes. About 280,000 use gas and 3 million use electricity. Migrant workers have become the main owners of mopeds sand scooters. They usually do not have license plates or carry out-of-town ones, police said.

    Police said the top allowed speed for scooters and mopeds is 15 kilometers per hour. But officers found during routine checks that 80 percent of them exceed that speed.
    I think this is huge and a big part of the problem in cities. Places like Beijing and Shanghai have been making a lot of progress in terms of, at least relatively, civilized driving techniques. But any trip 50km outside of either of those places will tell you that it's mostly an isolated practice. So of course when you have the people from these outer areas taking their habits into the city on an unregulated vehicle, it's going to cause problems.

    I think the other problem is the way that accidents are handled and classified for these vehicles. I recently got into my first motorcycle accident in China, and it was with an electric scooter, carrying two migrant workers going the wrong way down a busy four-lane highway (not in the bike lane) and slammed into me full speed as I was pulling out of a driveway. The problem was is the way the rule is designed is that since I was bigger, I classified as a car and he classified as a bicycle. Thus, I was going to be held fully responsible if the cop hadn't mediated in such a way to let the matter die. This offers very little incentive to follow the rules and in fact plenty of incentive to ignore them. Though I had to pay for my own repairs, I was lucky enough to not have to accompany the gentleman on the other bike for hospital visits, pay for those visits, or pay to fix his bike, which could have been a nightmare.
    Last edited by Bucko; 10-14-2011 at 05:25 AM.
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  9. #29 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucko View Post
    I think this is huge and a big part of the problem in cities. Places like Beijing and Shanghai have been making a lot of progress in terms of, at least relatively, civilized driving techniques. But any trip 50km outside of either of those places will tell you that it's mostly an isolated practice. So of course when you have the people from these outer areas taking their habits into the city on an unregulated vehicle, it's going to cause problems.

    I think the other problem is the way that accidents are handled and classified for these vehicles. I recently got into my first motorcycle accident in China, and it was with an electric scooter, carrying two migrant workers going the wrong way down a busy four-lane highway (not in the bike lane) and slammed into me full speed as I was pulling out of a driveway. The problem was is the way the rule is designed is that since I was bigger, I classified as a car and he classified as a bicycle. Thus, I was going to be held fully responsible if the cop hadn't mediated in such a way to let the matter die. This offers very little incentive to follow the rules and in fact plenty of incentive to ignore them. Though I had to pay for my own repairs, I was lucky enough to not have to accompany the gentleman on the other bike for hospital visits, pay for those visits, or pay to fix his bike, which could have been a nightmare.



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    Sorry to hear you had your first motorcycle accident in China luckily you came away unharmed.

    It looks like your vast amount of experience and training didn't stop the accident.
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  10. #30 Re: Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities 
    Jincheng 250 Bucko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdamo View Post
    Sorry to hear you had your first motorcycle accident in China luckily you came away unharmed.

    It looks like your vast amount of experience and training didn't stop the accident.
    Thanks for your constructive comment. Read my posts, read my point. Offer something constructive, or don't participate in the conversation.
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