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  1. #21  
    C-Moto Not-so-Noob
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    Hi Carl, and all...
    I'm well and just winding down a sales season that was up %170 from the previous one. Wow, the two-wheelers flew out the doors. I can tell you that tons of new commuting riders are entering the market here in the US. Scooters and Adventure/Dual Motorcycles are the two groups in big growth. I'm in Wisconsin and even our cold climate state buy 5,000+ scooter each year. Sadly the first snow of winter has just fallen this week, so the riding season ends til spring.

    Riders came out in great numbers this year looking for multi-purpose high milage small bikes and found very few options. And while most first time riders will seek the automatic tranny of a scooter, many midwesterners have dirt bike expirience. Supermoto bikes are selling well and enduros are being pushed into service as commuters. Most enduros would still need upgraded cargo space, lowered comfy seat, urban wheels, and such to be a better commuter.

    I don't know the exact spirit that brought about this prototype and discussion so I hope none of my suggestions are counter purpose. You seem to be looking to improve the looks AND utility of a light bike. Useful. appealing, simple yet tough. I'm puting a commuter spin on it 'cuz thats where I see a need and an opportunity. There are so many uses and users that it hard to make a Dual Sport that satisfies all. I have wondered when someone would explore using the enduro frame with friendly ergonomics and utility styling.

    Scrambler pipes are just a styling cue that I like. Street bikes with raised pegs, higher bars, and strait side pipe gave better ground clearance and could handle trail riding are called scramblers. The early Seventies Honda CB350 and 450 Supersports were converted to CL350/450 Scramblers. Look up a 1972 Honda CL450 and that is the shielded pipe I refer to.

    What we have here is a lowered dirt bike for dirt and street...rather than a raised street bike for street and trail. Which, brings us back to the issue of swappable wheels to get better handling where the user wants it. If you could offer this bike with two sets of wheels for 3G or less...WINNER. Then you have to actually support it with not only parts...but upgrades as well.


    IMO the rear styling on this prototype does a fair job of matching the tank shape from the side profile...but has too strong a profile from the rear view. I would like to see this design liability turned into utility. Consider this, the diamond shaped flaring rear body work could be a flat mounting bracket from just above the rear peg mounting bolts all the way up to the tailight. This would give a boxier looking tail, but multiple bolt-on accessory space rather than breaky style parts. Offer multiple rear racks, panniers, boxes, passenger bars, frame sliders, hardpoints, and even a stylish breaky parts to bolt onto the rear frame. Totally customizable feature instead of like it or leave it body part. What do think of that Idea?

    I like this bike, so don't take it the wrong way when I say that I'd like to see it slammed to the ground a few times. Where does the damage show up? Does that wider tank get dented quickly? Does the rear bodywork get torn up? Could bumpers/sliders be added to improve damage resistance? Does the pipe get smashed? Take a look at the armor plates that go on snowmobiles and jetskis as bumbers in high wear areas and imagine some on a motorcycle.

    How would it look in flat rat paint I wonder??? A mini-street fighter??? the Dual-Standard???

    In an entirely different direction, Carl have you ever seen the Italjet "Amarcord" prototype from a few year ago. Get the chinese cracking on a simple auto-motorcycle. Look here:

    http://bp0.blogger.com/_7gYNb3GSh4M/...h/amarcord.jpg

    Later, Peej
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  2. #22  
    C-Moto Guru Supersignet's Avatar
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    Cool Bike.. I wouldn't mind having one of them to ride around town
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  3. #23  
    C-Moto Not-so-Noob
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    Ya, that auto creates a new frame, then uses existing parts for the rest to keep it simple and cheap. But, I digress from Q's bikes.

    The US market see's 250 as a minimum cc to be able to get up on a freeway. The 200cc and 150cc versions that have preceded these have never sold well. Once the 250 threshold is hit, US consumers will see them in a new light. Sub-250 bikes are pretty much just learners bikes here. And learner bikes are riden, passed on, resold, and put back on the market. Many new riders will buy a used and abused first bike to practice on then hop up to a larger displacement. I see customers contemplate this theshold all the time, it goes like this...

    "I like the price of the 50cc bike/scoot, but for $XXX more I can get the 125/150 that can actually get out of it's own way." (half of 50cc customers go up to a 150cc within 3 years)

    "But, Since the 125/150 IS a motorcycle (and requires licensing) I might as well look at the 250 bike/scoots that are freeway capable. WOW, those traditional brand 250cc scooters are priced at $4000 and up!!! I can get a REAL bike for that."

    Then they need to choose between a price point new bike and a used whatever, where people who wrench are more likely to buy used, people who don't will buy new...with the giant caveat that a warrantee package and service is availible.

    I really liked the 200 Super moto from the moments I saw it..but, I immediately knew that most US customers would wait to see if a 250 became availible. Now, the 250 will come out and the next reason to wait will be Fuel Injection. Then consumers will wait for "some other guy" to buy the first FI models and work the bugs out. Certainly this is a tough gamble for the manufacturer, but the choice is clear. Drop the 200 for a 250 ASAP, and start refining the FI motor for the future.

    Later, Peej.
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  4. #24  
    Administrator-tron CrazyCarl's Avatar
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    Peej,

    The different tranny system does make for a new frame and looks like it should keep the center of gravity nice and low... perfect for easy riders and beginning learners.

    I've always agreed with you on 250cc being a magic displacement marker for selling in the US. I think if they could offer these new 250's for NO MORE than 3,000USD the would fly like hotcakes. Only problem is "they" still does not mean direct distribution from the factory but often short sighted importers.

    CC
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  5. #25  
    C-Moto Not-so-Noob
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    Yes and Yes! And unfortunately...yes.

    That bike wouldn't do for non-urban roads, but it's refreshingly simple, and the Ducati-inspired frame is cool.

    I have put alot of thought and research into the issue and have solutions for those manufacturers that want to "own" their product and marketshare. Of course that means larger investment and larger exposure for larger profits and stronger market positions. You'd think big manufacturers would at least want a back-up plan IF their importer/distributer lets them down. I'd love to help but I'm not free...my opinion is free, but my advice cost money.

    In business it's easier to fill a need than to create one. Several under-served groups of customers are waiting for exciting (yet affordable) solutions to their transportation and entertainment needs. After all, powersports is entertainment as much, if not more, than transportation.

    I'm really pleased to see this feeback loop start and hope that constructive and worthwhile discussion actually improve the products and relationship with this manufacturer. 2009 will see many new bikes and a rapidly growing and changing market. Manufacturers can follow the wisdom that I share with all two-wheelers...Proficiency is worth every penny.

    Have you gents seen the Aprillia SXV450 and 550? Red hot Supermoto with a very potent V-twin. Top shelf.

    Peej
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  6. #26  
    Greetings from Serbian China motorcycle riders.
    Two of us engaged about this issue, and we wrote this text abouth this bike. Also we did some of research with other riders, and here is the result of what the new bike should be...

    1) Looks - How does it look to you and what is your first impression? What style changes do you like or dislike and why?

    2) Technical - What technical features does the bike already have that you appreciate? What features are missing that you would like to see added?

    3) Market Position - How well do you think it would compete in the market? Would you buy one and how much would you pay? Do any other manufacturers make similar models? Does it remind you of a different bike?


    1.First impression about bike is that front headlight and front fender are not appropriate. Therefore, i tried to made photoshop image modification of front section of what it should look like with front fairing from QM250-2D model. Front fender is nice in general, but this is not the bike that it should be attached on.
    Probably bike would looked better with QM250-2D fender, although we think that new deferent design would be the best choice.

    2. We liked chassis and suspension, 22l fuel tank, skid plate, rear end, seat, 250cc engine, and of course we would liked to see fairing we suggested, which should add a bit of higher speed stability and wind protection. Both rims should be in more usual 17” combination because of a greater tire choice. Also the bike should have rear disc brake. Some owners of GY models are not completely satisfied by the drum brake.
    Hand guards, center stand, fuel gauge(or low fuel warning light at least) , kick starter, also higher handlebar and wider rear view mirrors would be very desirable, but other than rest of accessories, rear & side easy to mount luggage carriers would be a must.

    3. It doesn’t remind at any existing bike with similar power or price range. It will be very usable and original, and comparing this bike with new KTM SMT model (on which it could remind with our suggestions included), wouldn’t had sense.
    Yes, we would buy one, but only with more modifications we suggested. We would pay price similar to Motard-s, maybe 10-20% more, depending of bike’s components incorporated.



    P.S. It would be nice to have matte black choice.
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  7. #27  
    Administrator-tron CrazyCarl's Avatar
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    Blackbite,

    Welcome to the site! I think you may be the first member(s) from Serbia!

    Thanks for taking the time to sit down with your buddies and write such a thoughtful and well composed email. I think more than a few of us hope this model takes off. It's something unlike what any other motorcycle manufacturer is producing and has the potential of being a great all-round motorcycle.

    Clearly you're passionate about bikes and have many talents (including photoshop!). We'd love to hear more about you and your riding group on a different thread. Maybe introduce yourselves and provide a link if you have a club site. Again, welcome to MCM!


    CC
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  8. #28  
    Senior C-Moto Guru ZMC888's Avatar
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    I've always agreed with you on 250cc being a magic displacement marker for selling in the US. I think if they could offer these new 250's for NO MORE than 3,000USD the would fly like hotcakes.
    Same is true in the UK and I think most of Europe, where the bike needs to be under 20KW (I think it is) for new riders. Also in Australia and I think NZ where you have to do a 250cc license first then pass your full license after a year or two.

    Qingqi would be well advised, as would Sundiro, and all the other manufacturers with joint ventures, to beg for the designs for their sister companies' most recent reliable 250cc preferably air-cooled, fuel injected single designs. If they could make lots of these and bring the prices down and reduce the amount of smaller bikes they make they would do better in western markets. Would an injected 250 single cost much more (in fuel economy) to run than an older design of a 125cc with a carb?
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  9. #29  
    C-Moto Senior kingmarty45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZMC888 View Post
    Also in Australia and I think NZ where you have to do a 250cc license first then pass your full license after a year or two.
    Thats not really right...

    In Australia, you do a 7 hr course in a car park for your L's, pass a knowledge test and are then legal to ride motorbikes up to 660cc and which do not exceed a power to weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne. So you can have any bike under 250cc, with the exception of race replicas like Honda NSR250 and Kawasaki KR-1 models (kiddy killers we call them in Australia). So most bikes under 650CC are legal from the get-go.

    After 3 months on learners, you need to pass a riding test and do an 8 hour course to get your provisional licence. 12 months on that, and then you are good to go, unrestricted.

    0.00 BAC while on learners and provisional though!
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  10. #30 Qingqi Rock X Bike 
    C-Moto Not-so-Noob
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    Blackbite I recommended the same headlight design to factory for this bike the round headlight is not fasionalble enough.

    The bike now has a great touring appeal.

    Jean-pierre
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