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  1. #21 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru euphonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJH View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_650R

    They are basically the same bikes just built in different factories.
    By which you mean you could swap parts from one to the other, even the engine, and that the CFMoto 650NK is a clone of the ER-6n?

    I am asking a specific technical question, not just, "Do the bikes look alike?"

    Facts, please.

    thanks.
    jkp
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    2010 JH600 "Merkin Muffley" (in Shanghai)
    2000 KLR650 "Feezer Ablanalp" (in California)
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  2. #22 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Cloning is a biological term it literally never applies to manufactured goods and the metaphor is “a dog in the fight” not a dog in the hunt.


    I can not be sure if the engines are identical bet they have different metal content and engineered tolerances. They likely sourced all the part they can locally and likely outside of the Kawasaki supply chain, but with knowledge of the specification required. I would say yeah they likely could have interchangeable parts as long as the mounting point are the same, but likely are slightly varying.


    The Kawasaki engine uses a 180-degree crankshaft-drive counter balancer. So does the 650NK that is just a coincidence or is that a fact?
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  3. #23 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru euphonius's Avatar
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    Friend, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm trying to understand your point of view. A respected reviewer for a respected motorcycle magazine just gave this bike a very strong positive review, and suggested this might be a "game changer" as China moves up the value chain. You've countered by saying that the CFMoto 650NK and Kawi Ninja are "basically the same bike made in different factories." I respect your knowledge and views, and want to understand where you stand. If ChunFeng are cheaters and violating Kawasaki's intellectual property rights by copying the Ninja, I would think that the reviewer Cathcart would have taken a less friendly tone in his review.

    Here's what I want to understand: Is the 650NK a legitimate new arrival in the global market, with the potential to change the game? Or is it an illegitimate poseur that proves that China cannot innovate, only copy and undersell the competition by cutting corners?

    I have no pets in this fight, or this hunt.

    cheers!
    Last edited by euphonius; 07-15-2012 at 05:14 AM.
    jkp
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  4. #24 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Not really a game changer, the manufacturing cost in Thailand are lower then in those in China. Kawasaki can lower its margins on the 650 line if they wish.



    The 650 Ninja has an MSRP of $7,600 and the VERSY is at $7,800.00 in the USA.

    Kawasaki has a horizontal model line based on that engine, ER6n, 650 Ninja and VERSYS.

    The CFMOTO line offers the TR650 as a variant, that is interesting but hardly revolutionary.
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  5. #25 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Civil Action No. 0:10-cv-04362-JNE-AJB, the Hon. Joan N. Ericksen presiding.
    Filed on Oct. 26, 2010 in the U.S. District Court for the District of Minnesota;

    http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...ed-patent.html
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  6. #26 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Part of the competition; comes with battles in the courts systems. CFMOTO obviously knows that and operates for the most part at a level of legitimacy or you could say they are functioning at a level that gets a higher level of scrutiny.


    It is very unlikely that they have no formal connection with Kawasaki in the development of their 650cc models, but them developing it independently is not impossible.
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  7. #27 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    The CFMOTO is very similar to the Kawasaki ER-4n, in its frame, its engine appears to be same as the Kawasaki 650 engine, that Kawasaki offers in many of their models.


    Here is the thing; Kawasaki has obligations to its dealer network, those are the people that buy the motorcycle before you do. They also have obligations to their shareholders, they may also think it is their company too. They have an obligations to people outside of their inner circle.


    The executives can partner and share technology, but they may not have any long term investments at stake in what they are doing, the expression is the smart farmer does not sell his best seeds. They can and do often sell out and then bailout when their stock shares are highest, but if they are giving up the technology then in the long term it can and will shift the value to the other side, which current dealers and shareholders are not invested in, are they? Some can be damaged financially by the secret deals or that the executives are not doing anything when their technology just walks away.


    If these bikes are private branded Kawasaki technology, then can they keep it a secret? They have to disclose it to stakeholders don’t they? That being people those that invest in them need to know that and also believe they have some exclusive right to sell their products, when they are selling the technology to others that will undercut them in the market.


    There are lots of ways to steal things….some are more elaborate then others.
    2013 ER-4n

    2012 NK650
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  8. #28 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Here is Kawasaki Heavy Industries annual shareholders report....
    http://www.khi.co.jp/english/ir/index.html

    The power sports represents 18% of sales.
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  9. #29 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Duc's and Cat's 998S's Avatar
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    Not much to do with the CF Moto / Kawasaki thing, but worth sharing (perhaps).

    I was long time looking for a 3-position left hand switch for my Honda, to be able to switch off my lights (contrary to the US version I had which has the headlights always on).
    As the original OEM switch costs some 120 dollar, I finally managed to get one from China (thanks to Milton, and Shineray) for far lessss.
    This was however no plug-and-play, and I had to open both switches, remove the inner parts, and check cable colors to splice the new one into my existing cables.


    240-004.jpg

    To my very surprise, the inside of the Chinese switch was IDENTICAL to the original Honda switch, to such extend that I could remove ALL Chinese parts, and replace them with the original Japanese parts (such as push buttons, switches, indicator selector, etc.).
    This was not just some fumbling, but a real 100% fit.

    And that is just about a switch from a small Chinese component supplier ...
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  10. #30 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Honda more then likely pays even less then what you paid for that part, they contract a supplier and then buy the part from them. They then get the parts at a low cost, they may not care if the supplier sells the part to others as long as they can get the part for cheap. But they do get defensive when they see the parts show up as “Original Honda Parts” that being with their name and trademark on them.


    Before there was a Chinese motorcycle industry, there was a Chinese motorcycle parts industry. The parts suppliers have been selling after market parts for years. As the after market sales grow then the originals go up in price. The manufacturers do that to justify the low volume sales and maximize their profit on them.


    Honda has large sales in china and in that they have a large supply chain and its pretty obvious everyone is making products out of that same supply chain. The Honda supplier hand the designs off to other manufactures and in that they distance themselves as the contracted OEM supplier. The result is even though the Honda suppliers may not be selling the parts they make for Honda to others, others have the designs and are selling the exact same parts.


    If it is very specific and core technology then it is not taken so lightly, they are all reluctant to develop in China now because of this scenario, but the instance with Chunfeng and Kawasaki is much bigger, obviously then a control switch, its an entire motorcycle and based on an internationally high volume sales models, basically the CFMOTO are budget version Kawasaki models.


    If Kawasaki sold the technology to Chunfeng and did not disclose that transfer, then they did not disclose it because they feel it could hurt them in the market if people knew they are built with their technology. But what about dealers? What about dealers of both they are at risk there of incitements, if they do not know the technology was “legitimately transferred” there indictments will unveil that and shift value to the CFMOTO models. That shifting of value could affect the value of stocks to share holders over the long term.


    What is the relationship between them?




    Honda not throwing flags on a part they designed is not the same as Kawasaki playing deaf dumb and blind as the Chinese manufacturer makes their 650cc twins and sell them globally. They cannot they have to defend the patents of the corporation. If they are not then why not?


    Selling copies in china is not the same as selling copies internationally, there are laws in other markets the Chinese cannot control, there are many people with vested interests it is not solely up to the executives, it can manifest in other ways, and that is investors and those are shareholders and dealers.
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