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  1. #11 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    We all notice that Steve....they obviously do not, nor do they seem to realize that total motorcycle sale in the US are down, fell from 1.1M in 2008 to 450K in 2011.

    That's is why I posted the links to similar models for sale....if they simply look at the MSRP of brand new they will not get their pricing correct. A 2009 ER6-N is worth more then a 2012 650NK and they better offer a better warranty as well.

    That means they need to sell the units cheap to dealers....it also may be why they are not advertising an MSRP themselves? They have no clue what to sell them for.
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  2. #12 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru Zorge's Avatar
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    As a CFМoto webmaster, I really apologize. I'm gonna correct it ASAP.




    Ask me nothing - I DO NOT speak english. Really...
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  3. #13 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru Steve_Halt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJH View Post
    We all notice that Steve....they obviously do not, nor do they seem to realize that total motorcycle sale in the US are down, fell from 1.1M in 2008 to 450K in 2011.

    That's is why I posted the links to similar models for sale....if they simply look at the MSRP of brand new they will not get their pricing correct. A 2009 ER6-N is worth more then a 2012 650NK and they better offer a better warranty as well.

    That means they need to sell the units cheap to dealers....it also may be why they are not advertising an MSRP themselves? They have no clue what to sell them for.
    It's that "attention to detail" thing that we all want to finally see in Chinabikes.
    I'd not buy a bike from the website which says "Bike-bike doing doing vroooom. Orange color. Buy-buy". I'm a language teacher. In China. Every day I see Chinese people who don't like their language spoken with many-many laowai mistakes. Why'd they assume foreigners would be OK with raped English?
    OK, rant over:)
    Chinese price point is dependent on bargain-relationship-friends(powerful/sexy)-ability to somehow "use" each other in business context or otherwise. Too many variables. Here they don't even have price tags in shops unless it's a supermarket. You have to go and ask.
    Apparently US is nothing like that. I'd ask for a price. I'd ask for a discount (if possible), but I won't spend 3 hours out there bargaining 50 USD up/down. I'm sure their pricing isn't the result of market tendencies' analysis or plain and simple competition pricing research. It's guesswork.
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  4. #14 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    There really is no material difference in china for establishing retail prices, all charge as much as they can get or as much as so many customers are willing to pay. What is universal on the supply side is a lack of disclosure on the actual costs, they do not want anyone on the demand side to see the actual cost. They do not because then you can determine not only what the bike is worth, but what’s acceptable in profit, as what they as a total operation are worth, over the actual costs to get the bike to you and also stand behind it in support.

    There is no fixed price at retail both markets allow haggling, its a matter of supply and demand.

    What you are willing to pay and what it is really worth.

    Cost plus profit equals price.

    If the prices are market prices and manufacturing costs are lower then market manufacturing costs then profit is high.

    Manufacturing costs, distributor costs, dealer costs sum up to total costs and each level adds their margin for their individual profit, the sum of all that is retail price.

    The sales person on the sales floor of the dealership is paid on commission, they get paid on a percentage of dealer profit. So the MSRP is only a starting point for haggling and in some cases dealers raise above the MSRP or drop below the MSRP based on demand.

    Right now in the market supply is high and demand is low, motorcycles do not typically sell out in the model year it is not uncommon to see last years models even two year old models. The age of the inventory reflects a weak market and prices drop to clear inventory. Dealers pay holding taxes as a function of the market they pay taxes on inventory, so holding inventory costs or adds to unit costs. That motivates them to sell them, in many ways because they need the capital back to buy more inventory to keep going.

    The bikes have to have low prices and extended warranties…even then they will be difficult to sell because unfortunately your only as good as the company you keep the Chinese motorcycle industries reputation proceeds them.

    On another note the bikes appear to be copies and if they are in violation of a patent of any type the whole process can be halted and held until resolved in court. That potential presents an extra risk dealers should not take, the what if is there regardless to what anyone says without real an actual formal disclosure.
    Last edited by MJH; 07-12-2012 at 03:29 AM.
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  5. #15 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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  6. #16 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    In Argentina the 650NK is being offered through Keller Motos and is named a K65.
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  7. #17 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    In 2009 Kawasaki Heavy Industry set up an operation in Changzhou, Jiangsu. That operation manufactures engines in a joint venture with Kwang Yang Motor Co, KYMCO.

    http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews...rm-partnership

    That was 2009 and it is now 2012.…the venture was to transfer small engine technology basically single cylinder 2-4stroke engines.

    The CFMOTO 650 twin is obviously a Kawasaki design….CFMOTO operates out of Hangzhou, Jiangsu in relatively close proximity to the plant in Changzhou.

    "We have confidence that Kawasaki will transfer more models to CKH in the future," says Shinichi Tamba, senior vice president of Kawasaki's Consumer Products & Machinery division.”


    Obviously they did but was the technology transfer authorized. Is this this an example of industrial espionage or a licensed rights to technology?

    I suppose there are only few people in the world that could answer that question with any authority?
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  8. #18 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Kawasaki moved its 650cc production to Thailand, were it already manufactures the 250 twin. So relatively speaking they are not or should not be threatened by the CFMOTO offerings, that being the cost of production in Thailand compared to China is only marginally different.

    Kawasaki can offer its 250 and 650 twin competitively priced and they can expect to sell theirs for more in the market.

    But I always wondered did they sell the technology to CFMOTO or perhaps they are actually selling CFMOTO a Chinese made engine they manufacture in Hangzhou? That seems not only smart but actually kind of brilliant, because any loss in profit margins on the lost sales of the Thailand made models could be gained back through the sale of the engines to CFMOTO.

    But this is all conjecture on my part….I have a tendency to think in ideals. I have trouble believing that a corporation would steal a design and then attempt to market and sell it globally. I have trouble with that audacity, not in recognizing it, just in accepting it, which should be the normal and not the other way around even if it does serve your own selfish desires as an individual consumer.
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  9. #19 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru euphonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJH View Post
    In 2009 Kawasaki Heavy Industry set up an operation in Changzhou, Jiangsu. That operation manufactures engines in a joint venture with Kwang Yang Motor Co, KYMCO.

    http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews...rm-partnership

    That was 2009 and it is now 2012.…the venture was to transfer small engine technology basically single cylinder 2-4stroke engines.

    The CFMOTO 650 twin is obviously a Kawasaki design….CFMOTO operates out of Hangzhou, Jiangsu in relatively close proximity to the plant in Changzhou.

    "We have confidence that Kawasaki will transfer more models to CKH in the future," says Shinichi Tamba, senior vice president of Kawasaki's Consumer Products & Machinery division.”


    Obviously they did but was the technology transfer authorized. Is this this an example of industrial espionage or a licensed rights to technology?

    I suppose there are only few people in the world that could answer that question with any authority?

    Dear MJH,

    Interesting conjecture. I have no dog in this hunt, so ask this only out of interest: Are the CFMoto and Kawasaki engines identical, meaning one is a clone (either licensed or a ripoff as you've hypothesized) of the other? The reviewer Alan Cathcart notes in his glowing review that the 650NK is "pretty much a direct ripoff of the Kawasaki ER-6n" but does not dwell on this and later describes the 650NK as being entirely the product of Chinese engineering. I don't know enough about intellectual property law to say whether Cathcart
    is just being realistic in a dog-eat-dog world or is turning a blind eye to a serious violation. It seems to me the bike is either a ripoff or an innovation; it can't really be both.

    Can you give a more detailed analysis of the two twin engines -- the CFMoto and the Kawasaki -- and just how closely the one rips off the other?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by euphonius; 07-15-2012 at 05:15 AM.
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  10. #20 Re: CFMOTO USA 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_650R

    They are basically the same bikes just built in different factories.
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