Shanghai plates - price and advice

[xtoss]

Another word of caution about plates in Shanghai: The police are taking a particularly dim view of fake and cloned plates. How extreme? Yang Jie, proprietor of the Huageng Peugeot shop in Yuyao Lu, told me that one of his clients -- a Taiwanese guy who I've met -- was jailed for 15 days late in 2012 after being stopped on his scooter with fake plates at a routine traffic check. When I expressed skepticism, Yang showed me the traffic offenders' jail; it's the big Traffic Police building right across the street from his shop.

Yes, that's right: 15 days in a Shanghai jail for being discovered with fake plates. This is not apocryphal. The risk is real. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, or defending it. It's just real.

cheers

Something isnt right here, correct me if im wrong but if memory serves me right according to the law it
clearly states that registration plate is for the "bike" and driving license is for the "driver". So NO driving license=detain......... fake/clone plate=confiscation of the plate/bike.
Theres no legal way to detain someone with a DL just by driving a vehicle with an invalid plate unless there's a crime involved..... based from 2012 regulation.

[euphonius]

Something isnt right here, correct me if im wrong but if memory serves me right according to the law it
clearly states that registration plate is for the "bike" and driving license is for the "driver". So NO driving license=detain......... fake/clone plate=confiscation of the plate/bike.
Theres no legal way to detain someone with a DL just by driving a vehicle with an invalid plate unless there's a crime involved..... based from 2012 regulation.

I can check again if you like, but the jailing was explicitly for having a fake plate, which apparently is considered more serious than no plate at all because it's a form of willful deception. Riders with no plates at all definitely risk confiscation.

Logical thinking does not always apply.

Another serious violation these days is concealment of a legal plate, either with grime or paint or even just a rag careful slung over the numbers. Cops are really hammering riders and drivers who do this.

cheers

[xtoss]

I can check again if you like, but the jailing was explicitly for having a fake plate, which apparently is considered more serious than no plate at all because it's a form of willful deception. Riders with no plates at all definitely risk confiscation.

Logical thinking does not always apply.



Another serious violation these days is concealment of a legal plate, either with grime or paint or even just a rag careful slung over the numbers. Cops are really hammering riders and drivers who do this.

cheers

U mean its flexible? So the fate of every motorist lies in the hands of cops....:p

[Lao Jia Hou]

U mean its flexible? So the fate of every motorist lies in the hands of cops....:p

Amazing, but true ...

=========
Law of the People's Republic of China on Road Traffic Safety

Chapter VII Legal Responsibility

Article 88 Punishments for violations of the law on road traffic safety include: disciplinary warning, fine, temporary suspension or revocation of motor vehicle driver's license, and detention. (emphasis added)

source - http://bjjtgl.gov.cn/publish/portal1/tab193/
=========

One thing I have learned about China is that the law is always open to interpretation, presumably to serve the laudable objective of a harmonious society. Article 88 includes "detention" as an option for punishment for ANY violation. It appears to me that Chinese laws are more "mercurial" than what we might find back home.

Last Fall, in Beijing, there was an active crackdown on illegal plates (supposedly it was China-wide). To prove the point that this was a BIG no-no, the authorities somehow classified it as a criminal offence to operate a motor vehicle with a plate that was missing, fake, copied, altered, obstructed, improperly mounted, etc. No idea how that reclassification was done, but TIC so there is always a way. Presumably, as a criminal offence, the limit of 15 days for "administrative detention" could be extended, as well as additional penalties applied (e.g., revocation of one's visa).

Here is one article that quotes the campaign's public announcement:

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/728118.shtml

In the larger cities, such as Beijing, many of us personally know people who have been trapped in ugly situations.

I suppose one could try and argue "I had no idea", but probably not be successful. Under administrative detention, there is no court - you are held (for a maximum of 15 days) until a "disposition" is made (by the police).

If you want further information on police powers, look into the current public debates on "black jails" and the "re-education" system. People have been held for years, without charge, for what appears to be the most inconsequential "infractions." The new government has promised a comprehensive review of this policy of detention.

Bottom line ... yes, you can be tossed in the clink for fake plates. Will you? It probably depends on whether the "investigating officer" has a daughter who was wined & dined by a foreigner.

[euphonius]

U mean its flexible? So the fate of every motorist lies in the hands of cops....:p

Of course it's discretionary! Law enforcement in China is always vacillating between loose (laziness) and tight ("crackdowns" in the wake of some horrific or embarrassing event). 杀鸡吓猴 Kill a chicken to scare the monkey. It's an authoritarian system where accountability can always be redirected toward some unfortunate sap whose scofflaw behavior has always been ignored -- until that behavior becomes targeted by a (temporary, always temporary) crackdown. Then it all reverts to the way it was before.

TIC.

[xtoss]

Amazing, but true ...

=========
Law of the People's Republic of China on Road Traffic Safety

Chapter VII Legal Responsibility

Article 88 Punishments for violations of the law on road traffic safety include: disciplinary warning, fine, temporary suspension or revocation of motor vehicle driver's license, and detention. (emphasis added)

source - http://bjjtgl.gov.cn/publish/portal1/tab193/
=========

One thing I have learned about China is that the law is always open to interpretation, presumably to serve the laudable objective of a harmonious society. Article 88 includes "detention" as an option for punishment for ANY violation. It appears to me that Chinese laws are more "mercurial" than what we might find back home.

Last Fall, in Beijing, there was an active crackdown on illegal plates (supposedly it was China-wide). To prove the point that this was a BIG no-no, the authorities somehow classified it as a criminal offence to operate a motor vehicle with a plate that was missing, fake, copied, altered, obstructed, improperly mounted, etc. No idea how that reclassification was done, but TIC so there is always a way. Presumably, as a criminal offence, the limit of 15 days for "administrative detention" could be extended, as well as additional penalties applied (e.g., revocation of one's visa).

Here is one article that quotes the campaign's public announcement:

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/728118.shtml

In the larger cities, such as Beijing, many of us personally know people who have been trapped in ugly situations.

I suppose one could try and argue "I had no idea", but probably not be successful. Under administrative detention, there is no court - you are held (for a maximum of 15 days) until a "disposition" is made (by the police).

If you want further information on police powers, look into the current public debates on "black jails" and the "re-education" system. People have been held for years, without charge, for what appears to be the most inconsequential "infractions." The new government has promised a comprehensive review of this policy of detention.

Bottom line ... yes, you can be tossed in the clink for fake plates. Will you? It probably depends on whether the "investigating officer" has a daughter who was wined & dined by a foreigner.

It is amazing!:)

So whats next for us?

Motorist: what seems to be the problem officer?

Officer: "beating the red light"

Motorist: im sorry officer i was in a hurry, theres an emergency at home.

Officer: pls turn around and put your hands behind your back....click!!!:)

If having an invalid plate is enough to visit the detention cell how much more if someone commits a more serious violation? And BTW does it work for pedestrians too?

[Lao Jia Hou]

Officer: pls turn around and put your hands behind your back....click!!!:)

Although it has never happened to me (yet, fingers tightly crossed), I've heard the same story, directly, from two different people who were chosen to be guests of the police-tourist-hotel. The police are always polite, and request you come down to the police office to provide more information, perhaps even the next day, or maybe later in the week. One good friend had this happen on two separate days (day 1: please come back tomorrow; day 2: please come back on Friday; Friday - please just have a seat in this room ... another guy in the room will comment "so far, I've been here 4 days").

If having an invalid plate is enough to visit the detention cell how much more if someone commits a more serious violation? And BTW does it work for pedestrians too?

I very much doubt pedestrians have anything to worry about. For example, in Beijing recently, a two week "crackdown" on "j-walking" and "crossing against a light" netted something like a few hundred citations. This is in a city of 20 million, where everyone crosses roads with random abandon. The fine was a whopping 10 rmb.

And, as Euphonius notes, I think the real risk is during the crackdown periods, and probably only in hot-spots. The rest of the year, illegal bikes/plates/etc. are commonplace, although noticeably less than 5 years ago. If the police were serious about this issue, they just need to visit any motorcyclists' hang-out, or preferred ride route.

All said, though, one of the obviously key reasons why Shanghai and Beijing plates have skyrocketed in price is that lots of people do not want to take the risk. If there was zero risk, or inconsequential penalties, I think very few people would hand over bags of cash for a plate.

[xtoss]

Hahaha a whoooping 10rmb?! U got me there p***ng my pants....:)

Seriously whats the point of having a chinese DL or a valid license plate if theres no crystal clear

traffic law to observe? Everyone has the right to know what shoud be the corresponding penalty to

a certain violation/offense. If u ask me only the 200-2000rmb penalty is clear,

the rest is still up to the arresting officer to decide? I dont know about u guys but i find it disturbing...

thankfully during my rouge driving days officers who pulled me over were polite and considerate:)

Maybe it was my charm:) or maybe i just made it easy for them for not speeding away.

[TB-Racing]

The CAR plate saga continues.....

City allows 2,000 more car plates at auction to lower sky-high prices

Apr 10, 2013 SHANGHAI DAILY NEWSPAPER

The city will increase the number of car plates at the upcoming monthly auction by 2,000 to 11,000 as part of efforts to rein in surging plate prices, authorities said yesterday.

Other measures include reserving new car plates for new cars only and limiting sales of second-hand cars with local plates.

The city government said it has decided on the quota increase given current car price discounts, the increase in car plate demand as the May Day holiday travel period nears, and the increase in car plate prices.

The 9,000 quota has remained unchanged for months.

The policy of reserving new car plates for new cars only will take effect on April 20, the day of the auction, the government said. The measure may further push scalpers out of the game, Shanghai Vice Mayor Jiang Ping said earlier.

The third solution, also effective on April 20, says second-hand cars with Shanghai plates cannot be resold within a year to curb speculation.

The city said it would further improve the car plate auction management system and auction procedures.

The latest measures came after earlier policies to cool down car plate prices in Shanghai achieved little effect as prices at March's auction exceeded 90,000 yuan (US$14,490) for the first time. It was the ninth consecutive month of hitting a record high.

At the auction, the average successful bid for a Shanghai car plate soared to 91,898 yuan - up 8,327 yuan from February, making the plate almost three times as expensive as the cheapest car on the market.

City car plate prices have soared 32.5 percent in just three months.

In March, a new policy took effect, prohibiting second-hand car plates being sold for more than the latest average price for a new one.

Some potential buyers said they were scared away by the car plate price.

"I would rather buy a car plate of other provinces because it is too crazy to buy a little metal with almost my whole year's savings," said local resident Linda Wang, who recently bought a car and a parking space at her residential complex.

She said she will probably consider buying a local plate next month if the new policies prove to be effective in this month's auction.

[Lao Jia Hou]

"I would rather buy a car plate of other provinces because it is too crazy to buy a little metal with almost my whole year's savings," said local resident Linda Wang, who recently bought a car and a parking space at her residential complex.

Hey Linda - you have the money to buy a car AND a parking space, but no money to buy the plate?

So, Shanghai is going to increase the number of cars on the road and "hopefully" also lower the costs of entry? Sounds like a great plan.

If nothing else, China is entertaining.

Here's my plan ...

1) plates are freely available for 100 rmb
2) want to drive inside the congested city? No problem, if you pay a 200 rmb congestion charge for each trip.

My plan might make existing plate owners a little unhappy.