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  1. #21 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euphonius View Post
    Adjust your settings to "avoid tolls", and your GPS will steer you away from highways.
    cheers
    I could write a thesis on this subject and have almost done so over the years at more shall I say GPS and smartphone specific websites and forums, so I won't regurgitate too much of what I have partly written elsewhere, under another pseudonym. Also I'm writing this quickly as I have done my dash on this subject over the years and was a mod on another content specific website, so enough already.

    "Avoid tolls"
    There is a downside to such a selection in mainland Ch!na, and that is depending on departure and destination when trying to navigate towards a destination (e.g. "where to" using the GPS to navigate from point A to point B), "avoiding tolls" will also provide routing that may deviate from the highway at different points where the map data has tolls on those portions of the highway that are affected. Meaning that sometimes the route calculated will divert of a main road or highway to avoid a toll etc. This is because there have been up until recent times, many tolls on provincial, district and city highways and roads, aside from and separate to the Expressways (Gao Su Gong Lu). Many of the tolls are no longer in existence or used, so it may depend on what GPS software one uses and how current the map is within that software. Some GPS software also allows other options in terms of how routes are calculated e.g. shorter route versus faster time to name just two options. Different devices and different GPS applications can make all the difference.

    I have been using GarminXT for Windows based smartphone/PPC (3 x HTC's) for many years and have tried Route66, Tomtom, NaviGo and iGo in China for quite some time. I liked Mapking very much and still have it loaded on my HTC's but the maps haven't been updated for 4-5+ years. I offered to help the company that produces MapKing (MapAsia) several years ago with rendering up more accurate polygons, correct some co-ordinates and map "farts" and what not, but the company weren't that interested. Garmin via there Ch!nese partner Unistrong, have been particularly abrasive and in the early days, somewhat misleading in their offerings in the mainland Ch!na market. Safe to say, that GarminXT (no matter the platform) is not supported on smartphones as Unistrong only sell dedicated Garmin navigator units and maps to those units, and primarily those manufactured for the Ch!nese mainland market when referenced to it. It is absolutely possible to use the likes of GarminXT on smartphones and the days of offset maps is long gone... *winks* even in mainland China.

    It's actually illegal to do any mapping of any kind in Ch!na without proper authorisation etc, and that even goes as far as saving waypoints and POI's or favourite places using a GPS, which might explain MapAsia's reluctance to work with a private individual on their MapKing mapping.

    AFAIK Google maps, AutoNavi and a few others do not provide triangulation just by using satellites (which are free and don't rely on any data from a telephony company), instead they use aGPS which is assisted GPS using a data connection via a telephpony company (e.g. either Ch!na Mobile or Ch!na Unicom) and therefore one accumulates data charges, meaning to use the map to navigate and move about on can cost money. Google maps in the past also operated more like paper maps than a true interactive GPS. Even some of the aforementioned GPS software I have used can use a combination of the two methods e.g. Route66, where both data from a telephony company by pinging off of cellular site/towers and satellite data are used and combined to give better accuracy rather than triangulation relied on with pure satellite only GPS, though this method does no incur data charges.

    GPRS and GPS are completely different standards, and should not be confused. The latter deals with satellite signals while the former, GPRS deals with packets of data.

    I'm now playing with Samsung Galaxy Note 2 and Android JB 4.1.2 and GXT (street p!lot). That's all I can say about that.

    If it were me and I was a noob in Ch!na I'd simply look to buy one of the many dedicated GPS devices, as the prices dropped out the arse end long ago. Once upon a time there weren't many choices and those that were available in Ch!na were overpriced for what one got. Now though with all the copyright violations and so on, better devices with more options can be had for a quarter to a third the price of say, a Garmin Nuvi 200 (a basic as model which used to retail for >CNY2000 not that long ago).
    Last edited by bikerdoc; 01-11-2013 at 02:15 AM.
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  2. #22 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    MCM Chinese fellow td_ref's Avatar
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    "Avoid tolls"
    There was an option for AutoNavi to avoid Highway/expressway/Motorway, but it has been absent since a while ago. I asked them once for the option back.


    Google maps, AutoNavi and others do not provide triangulation using satellites... instead they use aGPS which is assisted GPS using a data connection via a telephpony company (e.g. either Ch!na Mobile or Ch!na Unicom) and therefore one accumulates data charges, meaning to use the map to navigate and move about on can cost money. They also operate more like paper maps than a true interactive GPS. Even some of the aforementioned GPS software I have used can use a combination of the two methods e.g. Route66. Where both data from a telephony company by pinging off of cellular site/towers and satellite data are used and combined to give better accuracy rather than triangulation relied on with pure satellite only GPS, though this method does no incur data charges.
    ....
    I'm now playing with Samsung Galaxy Note 2 and Android JB 4.1.2 and GXT. That's all I can say about that.
    aGPS phone doesn't rely on cell town for navigation.

    Because GPS or assisted GPS can work alone without cell tower. aGPS can have fast fix if satatlies position detail acquire from celltower. The data size is just a few kilobyte. with no cell tower assist, the PHONE's GPS eventually will have a fix, only it takes longer.

    AutoNavi has full POI data, you don't need cell tower data to search places. So a smartphone plus AutoNavi your phone is GPS navigation device. That's why I paid and own the app, in case I lose phone signal.
    Last edited by td_ref; 01-09-2013 at 11:50 AM. Reason: spelling
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  3. #23 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    Life Is Good! ChinaV's Avatar
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    Some very valid points from bikerdoc and td_ref.

    Avoid tolls is asking for trouble, as many regular G and S roads are wrongly identified as toll roads. Google Maps, and many other smartphone apps, operate the same as most off the shelf GPS units, they do not rely on data connections for position. Yes, they can use IP addresses and cell tower locations to provided location faster (aGPS), but the actual positioning is done via regular GPS. Some require full time data connections, some allow caching (storing) of data, and others do not need any data connection at all.

    Bikerdoc, I followed an almost identical path as you, starting with Mapking, moving on to Garmin XT on pocket PC, and then to Android when I couldn't get decent map data for Garmin XT anymore. I'm surprised you're able to run XT on Android, if I recall, the only Garmin product on Android is a bundled app offered in Australia? How current is your map data for XT? I understand your reluctance with relying on a data connection, but these days, it's hard to find a spot in China that doesn't have service and the prices for data are super cheap.

    The thread title is "Best gps for in China use" and I almost felt that HarbinSteve ended up choosing the worst possible option with an (expensive) iPhone, as Apple's new maps app is getting a lot of flack and Google Maps on the iPhone has always sucked. Fortunately, Google is back on iOS with an improved (I hope) maps version, td_ref has pointed out that AutoNavi is pretty damned good, and there are great options for weatherproofing the iPhone and mounting it to a moto. So in the end, HarbinSteve ends up with a sweet unit after all.

    I think everyone can make valid arguments as to why their Garmin/Android/iOS device is "the best", but in the end, what makes it the best is your ability to figure out how to customise where you want to go. I'm unable to fathom why anyone would mount a GPS and then blindly follow it. Sure, there are times when you need to get somewhere, and following a GPS is a fast easy way to do it, but I think most motorcyclists are looking for adventure and the road less traveled. For me, planning the route is half the fun, as I usually look for the most fucked up roads between points when choosing my routes. The concept behind a GPS is to get you from point A to B efficiently, they do not take into account the enjoyment factor of a motorcycle. Thus I find it absolutely critical to pre-plan routes using Google Maps (for roads) Google Earth (for goat trails) and then combining the route files for the best results. I actually think the route planning software is more important than the GPS unit itself, and this is my main frustration with Garmin. You can do it, but damn it's slow, painful, and far from intuitive.

    There are 3 things a GPS should do for you.
    #1 Help you get where you're going.
    #2 Track where you have been.
    #3 Allow you to explore the unknown.

    If you're not getting that out of your unit, try changing software or spend some time digging into the features.

    Cheers!
    ChinaV

    P.S. Can anyone tell me if the new version of Google Maps on the iPhone will let you follow a KML file? To try it, open Google Maps and type the following into the search box: http://www.contactdi.com/map/077.kml If it loads a route, Google Maps will have taken a giant step on iOS.
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  4. #24 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    Senior C-Moto Guru euphonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChinaV View Post
    P.S. Can anyone tell me if the new version of Google Maps on the iPhone will let you follow a KML file? To try it, open Google Maps and type the following into the search box: http://www.contactdi.com/map/077.kml If it loads a route, Google Maps will have taken a giant step on iOS.
    Dear ChinaV,

    i just tried it on an iPhone 4 running Google Maps under iOS 5.1.1. "No results." Maybe you need a newer iPhone (5) or iOS 6.x...

    cheers
    jkp
    Shanghai
    2010 JH600 "Merkin Muffley" (in Shanghai)
    2000 KLR650 "Feezer Ablanalp" (in California)
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  5. #25 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    Life Is Good! ChinaV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by euphonius View Post
    Dear ChinaV,

    i just tried it on an iPhone 4 running Google Maps under iOS 5.1.1. "No results." Maybe you need a newer iPhone (5) or iOS 6.x...

    cheers
    Did you download Google Maps Version 1.0 ? https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/goog...585027354?mt=8 This is different than the crippled version Apple has been bundling with iOS devices and has only been available since Dec. 12, 2012.

    Thanks for trying.

    Cheers!
    ChinaV
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  6. #26 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    Senior C-Moto Guru euphonius's Avatar
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    I did download Google Maps from the appstore back in mid-December; one reason I'd stayed with iOS 5.x was that I did not want to lose google maps in the mid-2012 Apple Maps fiasco. So today, I ran the link you sent and it took me into the appstore and said GMaps was "installed". However, it allowed me to click on the "installed" icon and it is reinstalling. So who knows, maybe I'll get a better version. I've done the same on an iPad, and it's installing now. I had not realized GMaps was available on that device, because it did not reveal itself in earlier appstore searches. So I can try your kml test on both devices with the GMaps version I'm currently installing on both.

    UPDATE: I'm now running appstore Google Maps 1.0 on an iOS 6.01 iPad and an iOS 5.1.1 iPhone. Neither device understands/accepts the .kml URL that you provided. GMaps provides a "no results" window with an exclamation point inside a red diamond. Sigh.

    ALSO: For the curious, though Google has yet to release an iPad version of Google Maps, the iPhone version can be installed on the iPad and will run. Weirdly, its "find my own location" fails badly on the iPad, and seems to be locating me about 700m away, at Shanghai Railway Station. Since the iPad is WIFI only, I'm guessing that its location services is honing in on the nearest IP address of my ISP (China Telecom), rather than the WIFI router in my apartment about 4m from my kitchen table. I take this to mean that these location services tools work better with cell towers (on GSM/GPRS or CDMA devices) than with WIFI points.

    cheers
    Last edited by euphonius; 01-10-2013 at 03:40 AM.
    jkp
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    2010 JH600 "Merkin Muffley" (in Shanghai)
    2000 KLR650 "Feezer Ablanalp" (in California)
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  7. #27 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    Life Is Good! ChinaV's Avatar
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    Thanks for trying the kml test euphonius, that's a major bummer. Sounds like Google hasn't done much enhancing of their app for iOS...very frustrating. That one simple issue has kept me from buying every version of the iPhone.

    Cheers!
    ChinaV
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  8. #28 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    There's a new product on the market that I thought I'd share with fellow peeps here...
    OKMap.

    OkMap is not a GPS, but a free interactive software application which allows one to work on a computer screen with digital maps that one has either bought or scanned. OkMap can also import vector data from many common map formats and DEM data relevant to height information. Data collected by ones GPS can be downloaded on a computer, stored and displayed on the maps. They can also be used to create different types of statistics. By connecting a GPS to a laptop, one can plot a position on maps in real-time. If connected to the network you can constantly send your position to a remote computer, or receive the position of ones companions on your computer and display the related tracks on maps in real time.

    License: Free
    File Size: 5.25 MB
    OS: WinXP, Windows 2003, Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, Windows 7
    System Requirements: Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 SP1
    Download: ZdNet.com
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  9. #29 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    Senior C-Moto Guru euphonius's Avatar
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    Dear Bikerdoc,

    Nice find, thanks for posting. Now, is there a Mac OS X equivalent?

    Cheers!
    jkp
    Shanghai
    2010 JH600 "Merkin Muffley" (in Shanghai)
    2000 KLR650 "Feezer Ablanalp" (in California)
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  10. #30 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    C-Moto Regular HarbinSteve's Avatar
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    I've been traveling around Taiwan and Egypt (a little cold for touring up in Dongbei this time of year) so its been awhile since I've done much with my bike, but now that spring is coming I have to start preparing my trip to xinjiang that didn't happen last year.

    I ended up getting an iPhone (mostly because I needed a phone and didn't want to fork up more money and buy a GPS unit also). I'm not sure it was the best option, but between it, my paper map and my compass I should be alright. Touring in China on a 125cc is more about adventure than jus getting to the destination anyway, so in the end having the perfect GPS isn't a huge deal.

    I think the iPhone and google maps system should do what I need it to. Now I guess its time for me to sit down and learn how to plan a route and download it to my phone.

    Thanks for all of the information and opinions. I'm looking forward to putting it to use this summer.
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