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  1. #31 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    If You're a Foreigner Using GPS in China, You Could Be a Spy

    Like many foreign companies in China, Coca Cola is no stranger to bad PR. A year ago, the company admitted that its Shanxi bottling companies had suffered from chlorine contamination; in November, after one of its executive’s laptops was compromised by a Chinese hacking crew, the company received a rejection letter from the government over its $2.4-billion bid for Chinese juice-maker Huiyuan, a move widely seen as a sign of China's distaste for foreign competition.

    But all that pales in comparison with espionage. Now "illegal mapping" -- with the use of "devices with ultra high sensitivity" -- is Beijing's charge against the world's largest soft drink maker.

    On its face, the case, which is being handled by the National Administration of Surveying, Mapping and Geoinformation and the Ministry of State Security, looks like yet another example of China's aggressive sensitivity about its maps. Geographic data has serious national security implications, says Beijing, and political implications too. Because its borders are heavily contested (by Japan, by India, by Pakistan, by Tibetans), China frowns upon foreigners wielding sophisticated equipment that might have to do with surveying.

    Update: According to a report by NBC, Gong Yinyong, a spokesman for NASMG, "stressed it is still too early to conclude that Coco-Cola has violated Chinese law, and said the investigation was being handled by its Yunnan bureau." Another officer who spoke anonymously confirmed that the agency has been tougher on foreigners and foreign companies in recent years when it comes to mapping issues.

    China's sensitivities are so strong that, as Mara Hvistendahl writes in a recent article in Science, it is effectively illegal for a foreigner to operate a GPS device in China. An emphasis on effectively: the rule is practically unenforceable, and most foreigners go about their days in China using GPS on their phones, like everyone else does. Nevertheless, some manufacturers warn customers against using geo-tagging equipment in China; a note included with the Leica V-LUX 20 camera, which has a GPS feature, indicated that the feature may not work in China. A representative later clarified that the feature would work, but urged visitors to the country to turn off GPS on their devices, or face arrests or fines.

    Li Pengde, deputy director of the administration, said during a radio interview on Tuesday that the Coca Cola case was only one of 21 similar cases involving companies using GPS devices in Yunnan to "illegally obtain classified information."

    "Some people are profiting from collecting information, including providing it to some foreign intelligence agencies," he said, without naming Coke by name. Geographical data could be used by guided missiles to strike key military facilities. "Mapping information can be used by enemies," he said, "so it must be restricted." He also noted that when the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was bombed by the US in 1999—an accident that left a long-lasting mark on China-US relations—Washington blamed it on an inaccurate map.


    A satellite map of Coca Cola's bottling plant in Kunming, Yunnan province, via Google Maps

    But from a technical level, China's concern over GPS here appears to be overblown: anyone determined to attack China with a missile is already likely to have the tools to accurately target it, said Todd Humphreys, who runs the University of Texas's Radionavigation Lab.

    "China believes that high-precision maps of its country are a security threat, and they are -- high-precision maps allow high-precision attacks," Humphreys wrote by email. "The trouble for China (and the US and all countries mapped by Google Earth) is that high-enough-precision (3m-level) maps already exist due to satellite imagery. So there's no sense in criminalizing cm-level precision, at least, no sense that I can see."

    Yunnan province, where some of Coca Cola's employees were caught using hand-held GPS devices to collect "sensitive geographic information," abuts Vietnam, Laos, and Burma, which, along with Thailand, make up the "Golden Triangle" where much of the world's opium trade begins. Last week, China's foreign minister pointed to territorial disputes to argue that "the complexities in China's neighboring environment have increased."

    Disputed borders between China, India, and Pakistan. China's Yunnan province lies at the very southeastern edge of the map, next to Myanmar (Burma). (Map by the Economist.)

    Coca-Cola, which says it is "co-operating fully" with the investigation, says the GPS its employees have used were "digital map and customer logistic systems commercially available in China," used to improve fuel efficiency and customer service. That's a common practice among many Western companies, as a way of improving efficiency and better planning, even if that sounds suspiciously akin to Google's explanation last year for why it was collecting IP addresses with its Street View cars. (This week Google admitted that the program had violated individuals' privacy in a case brought by 38 American states, and agreed to pay $7 million in fines.)

    “The trouble for China (and the US and all countries mapped by Google Earth) is that high-enough-precision maps already exist due to satellite imagery. So there's no sense in criminalizing cm-level precision."

    The government has another safeguard in any case: digital maps must be officially licensed, and are held under tight control by Beijing, which has ensured that Google Maps is often "off" from GPS coordinates by 50-500m (erroneous "trap streets" are used by cartographers around the world as proof of possible theft). Still, “It’s better for [your] safety not to turn on the GPS function [on your cellphone],” a State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping official told the South China Morning Post in 2009.

    Han Qixiang, director of the administration's law enforcement department, claimed that Coca-Cola was doing more than just improving its supply chain, using mapping technology so sophisticated that the administration could not adequately analyze the company's system.

    The Coke accusations also look like overreaction at a time of simmering tensions between the U.S. and China over all sorts of sensitive data. On Monday, the White House called on Beijing to take "serious steps" to stop extensive hacking of US companies and start negotiating international rules for proper online behavior. The same day, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chuying said that "China is willing, on the basis of the principles of mutual respect and mutual trust, to have constructive dialogue and cooperation on this issue with the international community, including the United States, to maintain the security, openness, and peace of the Internet." But she also noted that two major Chinese military websites were attacked more than 140,000 times per month over the past year, with about two-thirds of the attacks coming from the US.

    In 2007, the government began ramping up its efforts to enforce its laws against "illegal mapping" and other notoriously vague and arbitrary violations of state secrets. In 2011, the government sentenced geologist Xue Feng, a naturalized American citizen of Chinese birth, to three years in prison for allegedly violating state secrets while working for IHS Energy (it should be noted that Xue was held for three years before his trial, and, his family says, tortured).

    According to Sohu, China's surveying administration investigated and handled nearly 40 cases of "foreign illegal surveying and mapping" since 2006. An amendment proposed last year to the national law on surveying would impose fines and jail time for makers of maps that “fail to demonstrate China’s complete territory.” Adding to the intrigue, perhaps, is China's interest in competiting with standard GPS technology: in December, the government made available for commercial use a military alternative to GPS that it hopes will reach 70 and 80 percent of Chinese marketshare by 2020, and eventually reach markets across the globe.

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  2. #32 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    KING of MCM LOL prince666's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting a very good insight into GPS use in china , does this mean I can't use my iphone GPS to find KFC outlets now ! If so that's it I am leaving china now or maybe not how do I find the airport now
    "Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded"
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  3. #33 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    Danger, Will Robinson! Lao Jia Hou's Avatar
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    Yup, interesting stuff.

    I recall a couple of Ride Reports on MCM that relayed the GPS issue. I think MCM member "Fahni" was one of them - he was stopped by the police in Hebei (?), and escorted back to a "station" where some special police were very interested in his phone's GPS, checking all of his saved waypoints. I forget who the other MCM member was, but same idea - the police stopped him and were most interested in the mounted GPS (bought in China, FFS). After the police tried to switch the display from English back to Chinese (presumably so they could inspect the suspected nefarious waypoints) the unit froze and the police didn't know how to do a unit restart. They gave up.

    This pervasive paranoia is a hangover from a couple of decades ago. Think about it ... seriously ... is a "spy" going to go through all the f'n hassles of getting a motorcycle driving license, a legal bike & plate, and deal with all of the day-to-day crap we have to? Reminds me of that infamous CCTV Dialogue presenter (forget his name) who said "foreign spies come to China and "bed" Chinese girls to gain access to state secrets." Paranoia, or racist prejudice, or both?

    Sad.
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  4. #34 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    KING of MCM LOL prince666's Avatar
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    I need to change my name now from
    James Bond 007 !!
    "Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded"
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  5. #35 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    Thought I'd post an update to this thread.

    I have just returned to PRC having ridden my newly acquired BMW GS late last year in prep for the intended trip all the way from near Ningbo - through Laos into Northern Thailand (and return). I decided that the GS was one of the few motorcycles currently available in PRC suitable for such a trip, at that moment in time - it would have been nice to have had some other choices in the adventure or dual sport bike category but TiC.

    For the ride south-east, I was able to rely on my GarminXT (installed on my HTC HD2 phone running WinMO 6.5). A little outdated OS, but it has worked for me and my circumstances. Unfortunately for various reasons I had to find an alternative to the HTC HD2 despite having taken two of the HD2's down with me to Thailand (one a brand new unit albeit a year old which I had tucked into a cupboard and only rolled out for the trip having made a complete duplicate of everything on the much older and well used HD2 in my possession). I do have a Samsung Galaxy Note running Android JB 4.2, so I was able to fall back on that when both the HD2 failed for different reasons.

    Needing to find a suitable replacement for GarminXT which is not supported on Android (although Navigon [owned by Garmin] is - I could not get Navigon running on my Android phone).

    I started using OSMAnd+ (GPS) on my Android phone/device and had downloaded/installed many maps including the one for Thailand which has many dirt tracks on it. Found the OSMAnd+ app to be really useful and functional, plus the maps are based on OpenStreetMaps - therefore the OSMAnd maps are updated fairly frequently based on users feedback and input.

    I was surprised and relieved to discover that OSMAnd maps are working in PRC without any offset issues... I was able to ride from Boten Border crossing all the way to the area of Ningbo I reside in without any offset issues. Stayed overnight in Jing Hong. Left Jing Hong approx 10am on 2nd March... arrived home near Ningbo at 7am on 4th March. Had I not got intercepted on the Zhejiang section of the G60 and escorted off the Expressway (twice), my ETA was meant to have been home by 8pm on 3rd March.

    I did discover that some of the roads on the OSMAnd PRC map are incomplete, which does have an impact on routing choices etc.

    For navigating this trip I used:

    GarminXT on a WinMO device.
    MapAsia on a WinMO device
    OSMAnd+ on a Android device (real GPS with offline map functionality and routing)
    Sygic Pro on a Android device (real GPS with offline and map functionality and routing but also no PRC maps - unfortunately)
    City Maps 2 Go on a Android device (offline map functionality but no routing ability)
    GT-Rider maps when in Northern Thailand.
    Last edited by bikerdoc; 03-09-2015 at 05:37 AM.
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  6. #36 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    C-Moto Noob
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    I use a venerable Garmin Zumo 550 that I purchased in UK. I bought an English / Pinyin map from Taobao for RMB 50 but it had the well documented offset. With the help of a Chinese friend we contacted the store and they said there was a map available that would work but it would cost another RMB 50.

    As it turned out the store is based in Suzhou so I went there and they loaded the map onto my SD Card. All now works perfectly even though the English pronunciation is interesting.

    I prefer the Zumo to using the iPhone as it's hard wired and I can set up avoidances for toll roads, autobahn etc. With these set it hasn't taken me onto any roads with No Motorcycle signs, which the iPhone did.

    So for RMB 100 you can get a non china Garmin to work..

    This is the company website. http://shop34402752.taobao.com/?spm=...9397.20.GtoryL
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  7. #37 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    For several years now there are two Garmin maps available in both English and CHS. One has the offset still and the other does not. It is well documented on various relevant GPS related forums. Each of the two map versions (not relative to language here in this context) are referred to as 'Venus' and 'Official' map versions. Official Garmin China maps have an artificial offset or shift (co-ordinate deviation) added for supposed national security reasons. Using these maps on a GPS device or software will not display the actual location on the map. Instead, the given location will be anything from 1 to 500 meters away from the actual location.

    Venus is a series of maps derived from the official Garmin China maps but with the offsets or shifts corrected. Nothing but the co-ordinates are changed, so all road, POI info, as well as routing, searching capabilities remain intact. Any saved way points, routes, or tracks will have no shift problems. Compatible with TOPO maps too. These maps can be used on any regular Garmin GPS device and software as can other maps. However, some maps are in Chinese (CHS or CHT) language only and require Chinese support on the device to display and search in Chinese (CHS or CHT).
    Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist
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  8. #38 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    C-Moto Senior Symon260z's Avatar
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    Here's my 2 cents worth.

    For my normal driving around China I have been using Here Drive + as installed on my Nokia 1520, you can exclude expressways and tolls. For my driving around Guangdong and occasional trips to Hainan and Fujian it has worked flawlessly with zero offset. I have set up favorite places ( like waypoints ) of factories I have visted from JiangSu to Chengdu. I have used perfectly in South America too. Even better it will work for up to 5 hours in GPS mode without the need to be plugged in. I am looking for a suitable holder to fit onto my bike, to waterproof I think I'll just put in a sealable plastic bag.

    I also use a Garmin Fenix 2 for my offroad stuff, mostly to record where I have been, to set a a few waypoints and when I get lost using it's trackback feature. I used the Garmin bicycle mount for the Fenix zip tied to the handles. I actually bought the Fenix for windsurfing and mountain biking but is becoming more useful now I have a motorbike :-)
    Previous bikes . yamaha DT 50, DT 125, DT 250, DT 400, XT 500. Ossa 350 Trial, Ossa Mike Andrews replica. And now a Yamaha XTZ125 here in China.

    Biking is like sex :- you don't have to be good at it to enjoy
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  9. #39 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    C-Moto Noob
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    Hi,
    I use Autonavi app http://www.anav.com/, available for Ios and Android phones, chinese and english languages available. Once installed, you can download entire China map or just the provinces you need. Totally free, it changed my rider's life in China.
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  10. #40 Re: Best gps for in China use 
    C-Moto Noob
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    Hi All,

    I been following China moto forum for some time now. I appreciate everyone for sharing the information and great tips all over. I would like to contribute to the post aswell.
    I like to provide alternative solution to gps maps and issues. I been using google maps and GPS Navigation &Maps (by Scout ).

    I did few trips around shanghai and few pointers i noted while using the maps:

    1) Google maps can be used with the option (avoid highways) it will take you to shortest path but on the main street roads, which i found is not the most convenient way to travel in traffic lane , because i always find it confusing on which side i have to stop at the signal when cars are pulling behind me. vs GPS nav has the option ' Show route' it take you the destination using the lanes and avoiding the main roads but you need to select (bicycle mode), if you select Car mode it will choose the same route as Google maps. GPS nav doesn't use internet, it downloads all the maps to the SD card.

    2) Route on Gmaps can be faster but somehow its not for the bike route. GPS nav has the bike mode.

    3) Comparison to distances in each maps , GPS nav is the longest but i feel at least its safe for bike, avoiding any traffic violations.

    4) Auto Navi doesnt have bike mode, instead use Baidu.

    these are few observations and testing i been doing since i started driving moto in china.
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