If you want to ride in China and need help....

[ZMC888]

What the hell, I thought we were friends, you could have at least sent me a PM to discuss these concerns of yours!

... do nothing, because I don't think ZMC has any legal status in this country, China.

I can take a shit but I don't need government legal status to do it.

Yes of course everything everywhere is just like Beijing in the 1970's we should be very careful to shrink and hide, what if the government spies are watching? Or maybe in reality only care if there is an accident. How long have you been living here? You seem way too paranoid.

I am really surprised how far you guys lean yourself out of the window

Possibly if we lived in Beijing we would be leaning our heads too far out of the window, but we don't. Every province and city is administered differently, what may be highly illegal or strictly forbidden in one place, no one cares about in another, or is only enforced on a 'purge' basis. Come here see the Chinese riders with no plates, no insurance, no helmet, the local motorcycle shop selling stolen Hong Kong bikes (again with no insurance or plates). The Chinese riders, many of whom ride unregistered BMW's and Harleys bought in Beijing, unregistered because that would double the cost of the bike. Chinese riders routinely do illegal things everywhere, get a grip, understand the country the way it really is. Many times in the countryside it takes a while to spot a registered bike!

I respect the fact that I've been given the privilege to ride and drive legally in China

Yes, I mean it is an exclusive club they have let you join, with all those other fantastic riders huh? I mean people with only a European or American license for example, they really aren't up to the 'challenge' in the same way you are, are they? You're a much better rider because the Chinese government have been just so super wonderful and kind to give you a laminated photocard!

You and some others seem to believe that you are special and exclusive somehow. It seems you are so pissed off because you perceive that other people are trying to damage your exclusive status.

[ZMC888]

The fact is Andy, many people come here and ride without a Chinese license every year, some of whom have even less legality than that. The fact that you do not like it does not change a thing.

Culcune, now seems less likely to ever want to ride in China than before, partly due to reading our post, if he ever got the money or inclination to ride in Asia, he'd surely go somewhere else.

As a result of our post probably less people will probably come to ride in China because we are just being genuinely honest, as we see things, our sometimes bitter experiences on Chinese roads will probably make people think twice about coming here, or at least examine the reason why they may wish to do so. With a balanced view people can make a balanced choice. Knowing that you will probably be blamed for an accident, even if it's not your fault, knowing how bad the roads and drivers can be, knowing the amount of money you will need, this helps people.

Our view is an alternative to you telling people who have an interest in riding here 'this is strictly forbidden, only I can ride here'. They may think you are arrogant and will want to ride here partly to spite you and opinions of people like yours.

[culcune]

Our view is an alternative to you telling people who have an interest in riding here 'this is strictly forbidden, only I can ride here'. They may think you are arrogant and will want to ride here partly to spite you and opinions of people like yours.

I didn't have any immediate plans to go to China, or anywhere for that matter, beyond southwest Arizona, or into northern Mexico, so no one really scared me away, but I would have gone through Carl's suggestions and connections, or your club.

Yes, I was getting a sense of arrogance, but then again, Europeans tend (yes a stereotype) to be rules driven in situations involving driving/riding in foreign countries, as the rules tend to be fairly strict in the person's home country. So after thinking about it, I don't find the suggestions arrogant, but just pretty much by the book. the club, on the other hand, is giving out info/suggestions based on their knowledge. Neither is right, or wrong, and I think that one of you should ride to the other's place of residence, and beat the living sh, I mean buy each other a beer and shake hands. Now that I think about it, chinabiker needs to ride to ZCM's place, as he has a legal license

[ZMC888]

Culcune, I wouldn't expect to ever to want to ride in China. With Canada to the North, Mexico and Brazil to the south there is a lifetime of riding to do where you are!

[CrazyCarl]

Okay Fellas, let's not bicker and argue about who killed who. Maybe time for an out of country vacation???

I think Andy's main problem was the fact that the offer was so openly advertised and, to some people, that could seem like "arrogantly" flying a finger in the face of the law.

Even though someone may not agree with the law itself, and the very law may not even be enforced over much of the nation, nevertheless, some people will take offense to it and in theory, as a guest of the country one should be respectful to the laws and regulations. In certain countries - like China - you may ultimately be able to get away with this but if a stink is raised, the consequences could be... unpleasant.

Although there's no way to prove it, my guess is a majority of the foreigners who have experienced China by motorcycle have done so without at least one of the legally required documents. For now, that seems okay, but in the future it may be different.

While there are some total posers who have traveled China by moto, I think many of them were genuinely interested in experiencing the country, land and culture for all they could in a short time. Considering China lacks (and I think intentionally) the proper procedures for foreigners to obtain short term driving licenses it makes sense that in the lack of enforcement there is a way around it. Whether through ZMC or some dude at a local dealership, people will likely continue to get motorcycles this way and will probably continue to go on for some time.

If someone has the proper documentation (resident permit...etc..) to get all the necessary paperwork, I DEFINITELY encourage them get and maintain all necessary papers/licenses. If you're traveling to China and want to experience it without a proper license and want a bike, please recognize that it is a risk taken not only by yourself but also whoever is providing the machine and registration papers. Additionally, it may also behoove both parties to do so discretely so as not to cause problems for those that do try to obey the laws and feel that they are in place for whatever reason.

Case in point, there was a guy in Chengdu who got caught by the cops riding around inside the second ring road, in the middle of the day with his Chinese girlfriend (who did not have a helmet). The bike had no plates and he had no license...it turned into a real problem. The cops got all pissed off as dick-head was blatently violating several rules and then the news team showed up with cameras rolling showing this dumb-ass and the crowd of people around the "incident" saying "WE THINK FOREIGNERS SHOULD FOLLOW THE SAME RULES AS US." To be honest, you can't blame them for thinking that. They don't know how difficult it is for foreigners to get licenses and all they see is a foreigner who thinks he's some hot shit, violating some very simple rules... some of which (like the helmet laws) just showed him to be selfish and inconsiderate. The problem it gives me as a licensed (or even NON-licensed) rider in China is these kinds of incidents contribute to a negative image of not just motorcycle riding foreigners but foreigners in general. The place is hot and no one needs to be unnecessarily stirring any hornets nests.

Obviously this is a complicated issue and everyone has valid points. Let's emphasize again that riding without all the legal paperwork is a risk and the nature of riding in China is unpredicatable by nature. That said, sometimes you gotta do, what you gotta do and fact is, there's no stopping some people!

CC

P.S.
Culcune!!!

[bigdamo]

... do nothing, because I don't think ZMC has any legal status in this country, China.
I am really surprised how far you guys lean yourself out of the window - in a quite arrogant way I have to say.
Before you start: we don't need to discuss driving / riding skills, performance of law enforcement or any other weaknesses you've spotted.
No guys, don't mess around here with your so called help and advice - it is BS, you know that and it does NOT help anyone. It does the opposite - it harms the few who are willing to follow law, rules and regulations, how weak they might be in your eyes.

Also keep in mind that cnn is watching - always.

Andy

P.S. I don't work for the government, but I respect the fact that I've been given the privilege to ride and drive legally in China.

I find your arrogance breath taking.

I see your planing a trip which will take you out of China and back in again at two different points is this not illegal for foreigners if not it is certainly a Grey area( not many foreigners have accomplished it).My cousin in law who works in that field certainly thinks so, right where you plan to exit China.

that must be why your on another forum asking how to do it.

But wait a minute didn't you just have ago at someone on this forum about someone asking too many questions on how to ride through China and was ticked off because they where going to do it illegally.

Or is it a case of" Do as I say but don't do as I do"?

But I guess if your a "BMW Motorrad Instructor license, which entitles me to hold "On-road Safety Riding" as well as "Enduro" trainings in the name and on behalf of BMW Motorrad and BMW Rider Training".

Your entitled to do as you please .You legend.

There is a saying
" the cow that makes the most amount of noise gives the least amount of milk"

Andy it seems you have a habit of shooting down other peoples dreams.

Why don't you try helping people rather than standing on your mountain telling people what there doing wrong.

Also Quote from china biker
Quote
P.S. Don't know where you are from, but image(sic) a group of Chinese guys coming along and riding in your country - without license, without rego, insurance, ... - you're not gonne(sic) like that!
Quote

Last December it was exposed that there was a fault /grey area in getting a licence in NSW which the Chinese jumped all over.did the general public care in NSW . NO. they had more important things to worry about. Unless the Chinese in Australia are selling drugs, extorting money standing over people or killing people (which they are not) the general public do not care.There are too many naturalized Chinese with legal licenses driving around dangerously anyway.

So yes there are a helluva lot of Chinese driving around inadequately trained on NSW roads exploiting the system.

Only Human Nature.

[ZMC888]

Case in point, there was a guy in Chengdu who got caught by the cops riding around inside the second ring road, in the middle of the day with his Chinese girlfriend (who did not have a helmet). The bike had no plates and he had no license...it turned into a real problem.

I'm not in any way condoning this type of behavior, this guy was a fool.

I think you have said in your post a fair summary of the situation generally.

[chinabiker]

What the hell, I thought we were friends, you could have at least sent me a PM to discuss these concerns of yours!

Yes, we are friends and from my side nothing has changed about it.
I may have been too rude in my reply - my apologies for that.

How long have you been living here? You seem way too paranoid.

A bit over 3000 days, and yes, I am a bit paranoid.

Every province and city is administered differently, what may be highly illegal or strictly forbidden in one place, no one cares about in another, or is only enforced on a 'purge' basis.

That's right.

Come here see the Chinese riders with no plates, no insurance, no helmet, the local motorcycle shop selling stolen Hong Kong bikes (again with no insurance or plates). The Chinese riders, many of whom ride unregistered BMW's and Harleys bought in Beijing, unregistered because that would double the cost of the bike. Chinese riders routinely do illegal things everywhere, get a grip, understand the country the way it really is. Many times in the countryside it takes a while to spot a registered bike!

That's right too, but I am talking about foreigners, who complain about this and just do the same.

Yes, I mean it is an exclusive club they have let you join, with all those other fantastic riders huh? I mean people with only a European or American license for example, they really aren't up to the 'challenge' in the same way you are, are they? You're a much better rider because the Chinese government have been just so super wonderful and kind to give you a laminated photocard!

Sorry, but I am a lousy rider and use the laminated photocard only to show off.

You and some others seem to believe that you are special and exclusive somehow. It seems you are so pissed off because you perceive that other people are trying to damage your exclusive status.

I can't remember mentioning that I am, or anyone else is, special or exclusive. The privilege is the same for every foreigner with a residence permit. What really pisses me off is that some dudes are screaming out "come to China, ride illegally - no problem we help you with that".


Andy

[chinabiker]

The fact is Andy, many people come here and ride without a Chinese license every year, some of whom have even less legality than that. The fact that you do not like it does not change a thing.

The fact that I don't like Cola Light will not stop them from producing it and I don't expect that.

Culcune, now seems less likely to ever want to ride in China than before, partly due to reading our post, if he ever got the money or inclination to ride in Asia, he'd surely go somewhere else.

As a result of our post probably less people will probably come to ride in China because we are just being genuinely honest, as we see things, our sometimes bitter experiences on Chinese roads will probably make people think twice about coming here, or at least examine the reason why they may wish to do so. With a balanced view people can make a balanced choice. Knowing that you will probably be blamed for an accident, even if it's not your fault, knowing how bad the roads and drivers can be, knowing the amount of money you will need, this helps people.

Our view is an alternative to you telling people who have an interest in riding here 'this is strictly forbidden, only I can ride here'. They may think you are arrogant and will want to ride here partly to spite you and opinions of people like yours.

I don't really care about people coming to China and ride illagally here, but I refuse to help them to do so, neither do I advertise it. It's their own decision.

Andy

[CrazyCarl]

You know, sometimes I notice that motorcyclists fight like bull-headed siblings or family members.

All in all, the quality of people on MCM is very high and I'd like to keep it that way. With all the crap that someone goes through to stay in China for so long, it makes sense that we'd tend to get a little on-edge or paranoid; I've certainly felt that myself. Nevertheless, that is NO excuse for pointing fingers at comrades and ESPECIALLY even hinting insults of racial or nationalistic origin : the epitome of senseless, counter-productive stupidity.

At the end of the day, everyone is here to help other people because we enjoy seeing other people grow. It's good for them and it's good for us. We're bound to have differences of opinions and how certain things should be done, but fundamentally our goals are the same.

Now if we wanted to be productive, we could consider how to coordinate these ideas and efforts into something greater than the whole of the parts. If enough people got interested, it might even become a viable (and LEGAL) business proposition. One thing is for sure though, the good stuff doesn't happen when we're sitting around arguing like little school girls.

It may not seem like it but the work we're doing is important and greater than any of our personal issues so let's stay more focused on the and

CC

P.S. - Learn to use emoticons... . They exist for a reason beyond bored graphic designers. They fill in emotional information that is lost in text only communication which can, and often does, lead to misunderstandings of various intensities.