Jialing JH600 stolen in Shanghai

[bikerdoc]

Dear Sonk...
Your case is yet another example of why this country still has a long way to go. Maybe the next generation, or perhaps the one after that...

<Applaud>
Exactly, TIC which is akin to Disneyland but without the feel good factor, or declining rates thereof IMO. TIC where everything is just for looking, scratch beneath the veneer, beAware the smoke and mirrors for nothing is as it seems.

[hclayjones]

scratch beneath the veneer

find a whole lot of dead wood....

[bikerdoc]

...scratch beneath the veneer...

find a whole lot of dead wood....

which turns out to be fake (oh no, that would/wood be imitation wood/would) LoL

[Sonk]

Come on guys, let us be honest: we do not like things like this, but actually we all enjoy the good things in China. And there are a lot. My friend John told me after this that this was the reason why he hated his country. And I told him: "No, you do not! Something like this could have also happened in another country."
I am a German and nobody of you would have liked to live in my country 70/80 years ago. But now it is a real democracy - which is a bad form of government, but still the best form of society that I know. Who wants to say that China will never be able to reach such a level of society?

[Lao Jia Hou]

Sonk, you are correct. Germany has made progress over the last 70/80 years. And no, I would not have wanted to live in Germany back then (despite me being tall, blonde, blue eyed, with grandparent Austrian heritage).

China has changed dramatically since its 1980s opening up, but it still has a pervasive culture of dishonesty. It is far more likely to get cheated in China, IMHO, than in most developed countries.

In my view, one of the reasons for this is that there are few consequences for the cheaters if/when they are caught (as was experienced in your JH600 case). There are several famous sociological studies that have found that if the risk of detection is low, and the consequences minor (if detected), a surprising majority of people will commonly cheat. This is the case even where the person believes that they are a stand-up, honest person.

Making matters worse, if it is "normal" to cheat (i.e., culturally pervasive), then it becomes abnormal to not cheat - in other words, if you don't try to cheat at every opportunity, you are considered odd.

Anyone who has academic experience in China will have experienced the cultural normality of cheating, pervasive throughout China. About a decade ago, I was administering an exam of Chinese professors at a famous Chinese university. Cheating was not only rampant, it was out in the open, even among the esteemed faculty. Completely shocked, I stopped the exam and stormed into the university president's office. There, I was "educated" about Mao's famous assertion that "It is smart to copy another persons work. That is how a person will learn the right way." Not only was cheating justified, it was considered a virtue. I ended up being chastised for not appreciating "academic honesty, with Chinese characteristics". Fortunately, my home uni backed me ... but just barely, because the joint program was generating a lot of money.

[bikerdoc]

Sonk, you are correct. Germany has made progress over the last 70/80 years. And no, I would not have wanted to live in Germany back then (despite me being tall, blonde, blue eyed, with grandparent Austrian heritage).

China has changed dramatically since its 1980s opening up, but it still has a pervasive culture of dishonesty. It is far more likely to get cheated in China, IMHO, than in most developed countries.

In my view, one of the reasons for this is that there are few consequences for the cheaters if/when they are caught (as was experienced in your JH600 case). There are several famous sociological studies that have found that if the risk of detection is low, and the consequences minor (if detected), a surprising majority of people will commonly cheat. This is the case even where the person believes that they are a stand-up, honest person.

Making matters worse, if it is "normal" to cheat (i.e., culturally pervasive), then it becomes abnormal to not cheat - in other words, if you don't try to cheat at every opportunity, you are considered odd.

Anyone who has academic experience in China will have experienced the cultural normality of cheating, pervasive throughout China. About a decade ago, I was administering an exam of Chinese professors at a famous Chinese university. Cheating was not only rampant, it was out in the open, even among the esteemed faculty. Completely shocked, I stopped the exam and stormed into the university president's office. There, I was "educated" about Mao's famous assertion that "It is smart to copy another persons work. That is how a person will learn the right way." Not only was cheating justified, it was considered a virtue. I ended up being chastised for not appreciating "academic honesty, with Chinese characteristics". Fortunately, my home uni backed me ... but just barely, because the joint program was generating a lot of money.

Well said/written LJH...

[TexasAggie]

Sonk, you are correct. Germany has made progress over the last 70/80 years. And no, I would not have wanted to live in Germany back then (despite me being tall, blonde, blue eyed, with grandparent Austrian heritage).

China has changed dramatically since its 1980s opening up, but it still has a pervasive culture of dishonesty. It is far more likely to get cheated in China, IMHO, than in most developed countries.

In my view, one of the reasons for this is that there are few consequences for the cheaters if/when they are caught (as was experienced in your JH600 case). There are several famous sociological studies that have found that if the risk of detection is low, and the consequences minor (if detected), a surprising majority of people will commonly cheat. This is the case even where the person believes that they are a stand-up, honest person.

Making matters worse, if it is "normal" to cheat (i.e., culturally pervasive), then it becomes abnormal to not cheat - in other words, if you don't try to cheat at every opportunity, you are considered odd.

Anyone who has academic experience in China will have experienced the cultural normality of cheating, pervasive throughout China. About a decade ago, I was administering an exam of Chinese professors at a famous Chinese university. Cheating was not only rampant, it was out in the open, even among the esteemed faculty. Completely shocked, I stopped the exam and stormed into the university president's office. There, I was "educated" about Mao's famous assertion that "It is smart to copy another persons work. That is how a person will learn the right way." Not only was cheating justified, it was considered a virtue. I ended up being chastised for not appreciating "academic honesty, with Chinese characteristics". Fortunately, my home uni backed me ... but just barely, because the joint program was generating a lot of money.

While I completely understand your message here, I would like to present another side. I have been in China almost 10 years now. I realize many of you have been here much longer. When I first came here and established a joint venture, I was extremely wary based on all I had heard and read. 9 years later, I have come to understand the value of a business relationship here can be much more honest than anything in the west. I have multiple suppliers here who have never cheated me. This cannot be said of the California, French, and English "partners" I have had in this adventure. I am not living in fantasy land and can identify with everything you guys are saying but I can tell you that the west (including my beloved Texas) has more than their fair share of low life that will screw you at any opportunity. That includes the great democratic governments too. I still believe the west democracies are the best but anyone that thinks everything about the west is better has not taken the time to look in the mirror and see how much our own systems have room for improvement. Just sayin..............

[Lao Jia Hou]

I agree with several of your points, TA. Most notably the fallacy that the West is better, in all regards. Case in point, guns in America (no, I won't pick on Texas), political mismanagement, divisive two-party system, and so on.

Prior to my semi-retirement into academia (circa 2003), I was in banking/consulting in Hong Kong. At that time, I was leading a division that managed a large investment fund targeted for Mainland China. Although we came across a few gems playing by the rules, the overwhelming majority were ... how can I say this politely ... "less than forthright" in financial affairs. After several years, we actually had to shut everything down - we had been swindled one too many times.

During my subsequent academic tenure as a finance professor, I had the opportunity to teach China's "best & brightest" in both graduate and undergraduate Business/Finance programs. It was a wonderful opportunity for me to put my finger on the pulse of what the new generation of Chinese was thinking. Most students were well aware of the pervasive dishonesty (e.g., corruption) but felt powerless to do anything about it. In their view, if one wanted to succeed, one had to play the game. Additionally, and after a huge battle, I successfully implemented an ethics course at the graduate level, and taught it to graduate students in the Executive MBA program (the "students" were leaders from both government and business). Needless to say, class time was always very entertaining ... but I heard the same thing ... play the game, or die.

Post retirement from academia, I've been playing with my toys. In motorcycling, I've been totally ripped off by foreign-operated bike shops (as have several friends) but, for the most part, dealt squarely with by Chinese shops.

Here is one article which I found interesting ...

http://chinabusinesshand.com/chinas-...e-of-cheating/

and another article (a bit dated now), published in one of the government's mouthpiece's ...

http://www.china.org.cn/china/opinio...t_18442593.htm

Yes, you are correct, the West is not universally "better" ... but I'd still argue that dishonesty is endemic within China. Its incidence is also reflected in the Corruption Index, where China ranks quite low (although it has been making gains).

By the way, Texas is one of my favorite states - love riding through it. Spent a lot of time there, and always felt totally welcome.

[TexasAggie]

You definitely have a long history here. Don't get me wrong, I too often have BCD's that have me wondering why I am here in this logic free zone. There is a definite lack of morals (and civilized hygiene) on many fronts here in China. My point was the same human behavioral shortcomings exist elsewhere, but with 1.4 billion people most all located in cities with the population of many entire countries, you statistically are bound to see more dishonesty here. I do not know how it could be done with true numbers but I would like to see a verified per capita comparison for the number of shit heads per capita in all countries. Could be interesting........

I also try to keep an open mind regarding China as my wife is rightfully very proud of her local heritage. I must always keep in mind that every once in a while....

Your article on China's Culture of Cheating was good. I agree with most all of it but I would also remind all to remember the bankers and greed of Wall Street and real estate insiders in the governments of several western nations that brought about the last global recession. Thanks for sharing the article.

Some day we will have to sit down and discuss guns. I enjoy listening to intelligent and respectful dissenting opinions. I find one can learn a lot from listening to others viewpoints. We may agree to disagree but that is OK. I am sure we will find much more to agree on than disagree.

Anyone that likes motorcycles as much as you do with a sense of humor like yours must be an honorable guy to know and will always be welcome in Texas. (Or Jiangsu Province) Look forward to meeting you.

I guess I now finish up before I bore everyone to death.