Waldo's CFMoto 650nk

**bikerdoc** · 04-22-2014, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Wald0

Here is phone mount what I use RAM EZ-ON/OFF™ Bicycle Mount with Universal X-Grip® Phone Holder
It is connected by Zip ties, but it holds up very nice speeds up to 170km/h and more im sure but that was highest speed what I could test it.

Attachment 15213

**ZMC888** · 04-22-2014, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Wald0

Ou yeah and here is my first go with GoPro.. must say shake as !#?€#!! and sorry to our Chinese friends as they have youtube blocked :)

600km day trip in Vietnam

Watching it any how. We have ways around that firewall.

How is that piggyback power commander remapping going? Does the remap work well with the Yoshi? I'd love a new can to save some weight, and make the bike look better, however I'm not going to touch it as I was reading information from Triumph that they say ABSOLUTELY do not put a less restricted can/cat on any of their bikes without an ECU remap as modern bikes run very lean to pass emissions and you will very probably cause engine damage. Amazing the amount of other CFMOTO owners who have done exactly that. A bad idea, and an even worse one during the warranty period.

**Wald0** · 04-22-2014, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by ZMC888

Watching it any how. We have ways around that firewall.

How is that piggyback power commander remapping going? Does the remap work well with the Yoshi? I'd love a new can to save some weight, and make the bike look better, however I'm not going to touch it as I was reading information from Triumph that they say ABSOLUTELY do not put a less restricted can/cat on any of their bikes without an ECU remap as modern bikes run very lean to pass emissions and you will very probably cause engine damage. Amazing the amount of other CFMOTO owners who have done exactly that. A bad idea, and an even worse one during the warranty period.

Well, it is going OK, but i cant touch 3000 rpm range or it starts to run shit.. this might be cause its running still Closed loop and ECU tries to compensate what ever modifications PCV does resulting some sort cat and mouse game..

Well what comes to that bike and engine trouble that while running at Closed loop it does not matter too much as ECU will sniff data of the sensors , but on closed loop it will lean out a lot.. as much to destroy engine.. who knows, but there are lots of bikes what has after market slip on and there is not epidemic of blown engines.. :)

**bikerdoc** · 04-22-2014, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by ZMC888

Watching it any how. We have ways around that firewall.

How is that piggyback power commander remapping going? Does the remap work well with the Yoshi? I'd love a new can to save some weight, and make the bike look better, however I'm not going to touch it as I was reading information from Triumph that they say ABSOLUTELY do not put a less restricted can/cat on any of their bikes without an ECU remap as modern bikes run very lean to pass emissions and you will very probably cause engine damage. Amazing the amount of other CFMOTO owners who have done exactly that. A bad idea, and an even worse one during the warranty period.

I have a good mate with a 2013 TEX (Triumph Explorer) 1200 that added an after market slip on muffler without adding ECU/ECM reflash or Power Commander or similar. No problems whatsoever, and he just had the TEX into his local Trumpy dealer for a service and had one item completed as part of a service bulletin. No mention about his choice of aftermarket muffler or some such. TEX is on a 24 month warranty. Have an aftermaket 'can' on my Super Ten and not had the ECU/ECM flashed at all from stock, as have many thousands of other S10 owners - without incident...

Originally Posted by Wald0

Well... as much to destroy engine.. who knows, but there are lots of bikes what has after market slip on and there is not epidemic of blown engines.. :)

Exactly...!

**ZMC888** · 04-22-2014, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wald0

Well, it is going OK, but i cant touch 3000 rpm range or it starts to run shit.. this might be cause its running still Closed loop and ECU tries to compensate what ever modifications PCV does resulting some sort cat and mouse game..

Well what comes to that bike and engine trouble that while running at Closed loop it does not matter too much as ECU will sniff data of the sensors , but on closed loop it will lean out a lot.. as much to destroy engine.. who knows, but there are lots of bikes what has after market slip on and there is not epidemic of blown engines.. :)

Slip on cans are commonplace in the west, but then reprogramming the ECU is also common. Most western dealers have specific programs for each system. Change your Triumph or Honda to an Arrow slip-on or Akrapovic system, yep there's a program for that.

OK, let's say for sake of argument Triumph are wrong, in fact that modern bike's ECU can adjust for any lack of fuel in the mixture. Then there's an unrelated engine problem within the 2 year warranty, your dealer and CFMOTO have then got their escape clause.

In fact there have been lots of cases of engine failure both with CFMOTO and Benelli bikes in China. There is also a massive culture of wacking on cheap unrestricted mufflers for show pony 'individualism' and a nice loud noise, unrelated?

I agree that it probably doesn't cause engines to get blow up, but premature valve and ring damage possibly. Bike runs hot enough without pushing it to be more lean.

**ZMC888** · 04-22-2014, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by bikerdoc

I have a good mate with a 2013 TEX (Triumph Explorer) 1200 that added an after market slip on muffler without adding ECU/ECM reflash or Power Commander or similar. No problems whatsoever, and he just had the TEX into his local Trumpy dealer for a service and had one item completed as part of a service bulletin. No mention about his choice of aftermarket muffler or some such. TEX is on a 24 month warranty. Have an aftermaket 'can' on my Super Ten and not had the ECU/ECM flashed at all from stock, as have many thousands of other S10 owners - without incident...

Exactly...!

Bikerdoc. A less restrictive muffler will cause a lean condition in an engine unless you remap the ECU or rejet the carbs, this is a universally known fact. Those specific aftermarket mufflers that come with Triumphs etc come with a baffle which often reduces the power and torque of your bike, but make it safe to ride until you remap the ECU. After you remap the ECU you can then remove the baffle and have the full noise and power offered by the system or muffler.

So make your bike run hot and suffer premature engine wear and damage whilst invalidating your warranty, it's your funeral.

**prince666** · 04-22-2014, 02:55 PM

Interesting points for all party in this thread would love to hear other people points Of view on this matter !

**bikerdoc** · 04-22-2014, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by ZMC888

Slip on cans are commonplace in the west, but then reprogramming the ECU is also common. Most western dealers have specific programs for each system. Change your Triumph or Honda to an Arrow slip-on or Akrapovic system, yep there's a program for that.

When the Akrapovic 'can' was slipped onto my S10, no remapping/recalibration of the ECU/ECM fuel table was undertaken, nor did the friend with his TEX, undertake a remap when he slipped on his aftermarket 'can', and I'd suggest anecdotally from reading a number of relevant sources e.g. yamahasupertenere, ADVrider et al., I suspect that few other owners of the S10 have undertaken a reflash or their bikes ECU/ECM either as a result of just fitting an aftermarket 'can'.

Originally Posted by ZMC888

OK, let's say for sake of argument Triumph are wrong, in fact that modern bike's ECU can adjust for any lack of fuel in the mixture. Then there's an unrelated engine problem within the 2 year warranty, your dealer and CFMOTO have then got their escape clause.

Would this then not contradict the basis or foundation of your argument? If a modern bike with a ECU/ECM can compensate for a lean condition, then the engine mixture would be run richer (compensating) via the ECM/ECU management for a lean condition, and consequently no lean condition would likely be the result? You also picked Tumpy but then threw CFMoto in there. While the two are motorcycle manufacturers, I doubt that Triumph care much about a CFMoto claim, or denial of such. Though the Trumpy marketing and maybe even the R&D might take an interest, to increase sales etc.

Originally Posted by ZMC888

In fact there have been lots of cases of engine failure both with CFMOTO and Benelli bikes in China. There is also a massive culture of wacking on cheap unrestricted mufflers for show pony 'individualism' and a nice loud noise, unrelated?

Do you mean to write 'anecdotally'? 'Cause my wide readership of many MC magazines and MC forums would suggest otherwise, but as such that does not make my reading factual, and indeed I might be incorrect in my flawed judgement. So, I'd like to see these facts, the raw data, the numbers on engine failures, vz a vz total number of bikes sold, as well as data on cause of those engine failures etc., so I can make my own informed judgement as to whether such a claim is with foundation and merit. Does supposed engine failures represent a statistical significant number or otherwise (n=?). There are many examples of this, such as the supposed high rate of CVT failures on Suzuki Burgman AN650's. Reading a forum such as BurgmanUSA, a casual reader might suspect and arrive at the impression that said scoot suffers an inordinately high CVT failure rate at first glance. However such an impression while plausible, and understandable, can be called into question, when one factors in the number of units sold (N=60,000 [approx]) as at 2012.

Originally Posted by ZMC888

I agree that it probably doesn't cause engines to get blow up, but premature valve and ring damage possibly. Bike runs hot enough without pushing it to be more lean.

Kind of contradictory me thinks. You present the argument that lean conditions on CFMoto's and possibly other MC brands are likely causation of premature engine failure, and that adding an aftermarket 'end can' causes the bike to run more lean, which then the ECU/ECM compensates for by enriching the mixture...

which results in the engine not running lean...

Hmm, "...premature valve and ring damage" ...Supposition perhaps..?

Originally Posted by ZMC888

Bikerdoc. A less restrictive muffler will cause a lean condition in an engine unless you remap the ECU or rejet the carbs, this is a universally known fact. Those specific aftermarket mufflers that come with Triumphs etc come with a baffle which often reduces the power and torque of your bike, but make it safe to ride until you remap the ECU. After you remap the ECU you can then remove the baffle and have the full noise and power offered by the system or muffler.

So make your bike run hot and suffer premature engine wear and damage whilst invalidating your warranty, it's your funeral.

The aftermarket 'end can' for both my S10 and mates TEX, were bought from alternative aftermarket resellers not from the specific branded dealerships. That is not to say or disagree with you that as such the 'cans' were not manufactured specifically 'tuned' for the specific bike (make and model). Just a cursory glance at any number of aftermarket MC Muffler suppliers would suggest that the addition of an 'end can' supposedly marginally increases torque and/or HP without the need for a ECU/ECM reflash or addition of a "Power Commander" or some such. I think what is important is that a specific 'end can' for that specific make and model of ride is used.

I'll pass the information along, that running a bike hotter will lead to premature engine wear and damage and that 'we' the collective who do so, will suffer by all accounts premature/increased morbidity and mortality. Mind you didn't seem to be an issue when I was in the wide expansive sands Kingdom of Saudi Arabia or the interior of the outback in Australia...

Thanks for the heads up...

**ZMC888** · 04-23-2014, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by bikerdoc

import [sic] is that a specific 'end can' for that specific make and model of ride is used.

You are answering exactly what I'm trying to tell you. If I owned a Honda or Triumph, yep I'd go online and buy a model specific muffler and put it on myself it's been tested and will match the bike, that's fine. However, there aren't to my knowledge any model specific mufflers for 650cc CFMOTOs or is there any way to properly reflash the ECU. What you are doing when putting another muffler on without even doing a plug read (I know bloody difficult on a modern bike usually) who knows....engine damage? Maybe. Invalidate warranty? Certainly.

We've already beaten this to death on other threads. We had an expert on these forums, he concuded and it is well known in the industry.....

-Modern bikes run lean to pass emissions
-A bike with a less restrictive muffler will run lean
-What an ECU will do to fix this lean condition is unknown and depends on the bike, but usually you need to reprogram the ECU.

Really oddly you seem 'scientific' in your general outlook, but then come down to 'me and my mate did it', 'I've done thousands of kilometers with no problem' 'my seat of the pants feel tells me my bike is more powerful and faster' and get really annoyed if someone counters you babble with actual data or the request for it.

Please just analyse your mixture and stick your bike on a dyno. Be a 'Bikerdoc' not a biker 'she'll be awright mate'.

**Wald0** · 04-23-2014, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by ZMC888

there aren't to my knowledge any model specific mufflers for 650cc CFMOTOs or is there any way to properly reflash the ECU.

Well, as technically you are right, there are no specific mufflers for 650... except.. As this bike it done by copying Kawasaki 650cc engine we can assume that it uses similar fuel ratios too, sure we cant know if they are how good, but I would think it is pretty close so I would say any slip on that is good for Er6 or ninja 650 would work great on this bike. True there is not any real way to test this except dyno and trust me I would have taken my bike to one if it would be closer than 1500km :) and yes.. while there are no ECU yet or piggyback devices they might be coming. (not sure powercommander unless 650tr or Nk would hit the US markets)

Ps. it looks like PCV cant control 650Nk ignition advances, but as my sensor might be broken I can only confirm this after I get new sensor as my will read only 300ohm and kawasaki manual does refer it to be minimum 372ohm.. and CFMoto service manual don't have these values.