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  1. #11 Re: CFMOTO 
    Senior C-Moto Guru Kennon's Avatar
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    A2 is a EU law not UK, it's standardised EU as we can swap licenses easily under the free movement agreement. 250 nakeds and "sport bikes" being made now aren't sold as they previously fitted the previous 33bhp limit imposed in the UK so they have no real place in the EU as such anymore. 250's meet Asian license requirements hence these companies up-ing the capacity or sleeving them down to meet market demands.

    The easiest way to bypass the EU A1/A2 rules was just do the test earlier before the new rules came in I did mine in 2011 and was "restricted" to 33bhp
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  2. #12 Re: CFMOTO 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Yeah they homologated the standard across the entire EU, also I believe that all of the A2 and unrestricted A class have to have ABS for model year 2017 and onward, all the 250 bikes would still be A2 just entry level within A2, any without ABS has to be registered by 2018. Honda must have promoted this the CB500 line is all A2 classified, the new Kawasaki Z250SL is A2 as is the Yamaha MT-03, any model above the A1 criteria and below 35kW falls into A2, it’s a range.
    The policy is progressive testing and fast-tracking requires testing as soon as an individual is eligible.
    You will see allot of name brands in the range it is already happening, the new BMW and likely some others, as a 500cc BMW. Under 47hp and over 15hp is A2, obviously a 25hp 250cc would be a mid-range A2 a 17hp 223cc would be an entry level A2 and not likely to sell very well.
    It’s all regulations for under 24 years of age. Once over that there is direct testing.
    Benelli is somewhat poised to compete in this sector, with its 250,300 and 500 offerings. Seems that Zongshen is as well with plans for a 450cc single. You might see some Chinese offering in the range attempting to be the value leaders, however the name brands are coming out of low cost production centers and with prices that reflect that.
    The NK400 will be far from a home run.
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  3. #13 Re: CFMOTO 
    Senior C-Moto Guru Kennon's Avatar
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    looking at recent developments looks like CFmoto is going to create a rival to the Kawasaki Versys 650 with these images also looking at the NK400/650 there are subtle differences in the engine cases and the headlight to differentiate the two bar the decals. Now I'm just waiting for a full Minitwin road bike full fairing and clip ons with the WP forks fitted to the TR-G and this ADV model.
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    Last edited by Kennon; 05-01-2016 at 11:43 AM. Reason: added extra expectations
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  4. #14 Re: CFMOTO 
    KING of MCM LOL prince666's Avatar
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    Yes great news it looks like it will be called the 650 MT and the news it not new to people in China !

    On good information from CF we are told it will be lunch in China at the end of this year
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  5. #15 Re: CFMOTO 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    CFMOTO does not really have anywhere else to sell then in China, they stopped offering their motorcycles in the USA, you can find old/new inventory selling though. $5,000.00

    In the UK they are on discount through WK.
    3,299.00 GBP = 4,824.04 USD
    In Argentina they are stuck with inventory that is aging and with really high price tags.
    140,000.00 ARS = 9,875.30 USD

    They likely sell the most in Australia, they are currently selling for least there.
    5,999.00 AUD = 4,516.46 USD


    It is not working out how they would have liked it to go, they likely assumed that they could displace Kawasaki sales, when instead they compete with Kawasaki used inventory. In that they compete only on a financing rate, since used vehicle loans typically have higher interest rates. So one might choose the NK650 new and financed over a used Kawasaki financed. However, considering resale values, not many are likely to make the CFMOTO choice.
    It is not just CFMOTO that is stuck between a rock and hard place, the entire Chinese motorcycle industry is. The rules of business management are to increase revenue and reduce operating costs. Everything needed to succeed costs more and the markets refuse to pay more for what is lesser.
    Last edited by MJH; 05-03-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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  6. #16 Re: CFMOTO 
    KING of MCM LOL prince666's Avatar
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    In the UK yes WK is selling old stock "none ABS models" ?

    Argentina just to much money down to import Tax ?

    Australia is doing ok good price with good sevice backup ?
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  7. #17 Re: CFMOTO 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    From what I have read a learner class in Australia is limited to 660cc or less and not to exceed 15kw/t, which is about 48.5hp. Which means that the NK400 is likely going to go to their best market and would likely be priced lower then what the current NK650 sells for. It also is theoretically suitable for the A2 classification in the EU, though so is the Kawasaki Limited power version ER6n 650 and would likely be priced under what the current NK650 sells for.
    I believe the ABS requirement for the EU is on model years 2016 and onward, they can sell 2015 or earlier new stock up to 2018. The only individuals waiting on the ABS versions of these are regulators, not ridders, not to say that having ABS is not safer, it is just suspect as to whether a Chinese model with ABS would be.
    Keep in mind one of the top selling models in Europe for the past few years is the Kawasaki Versys, which may make some think that in turn would make the MT650 a good idea for the EU, theoretically that would be true, however the reality is it would be competing against a very large inventory of used Versys, which regenerates each and every year.
    If Cfmoto can keep selling their offering for or at current prices and cover costs of operations they may have some chance, if they cannot then the next question would be how profitable are the Thai Kawasaki’s, they have not done any price reductions but they could if threatened. I have been looking at the industry for some time and the low cost of the Chinese made offering are all due to compromises and shortcuts, does not look like operating efficiency that keeps costs low out of the Chinese motorcycle industry.
    Targeting a market segment of a specific competitor’s product line, with what is actually a copy of their product may have seemed like a sure thing but it seems that it is not working out that way. The cheaper version is just that.
    Last edited by MJH; 05-06-2016 at 10:34 PM.
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  8. #18 Re: CFMOTO 
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    Alot of the problems with chinese bikes, is they are having to rebuild/build their reputations after the early years of very poorly manufactured & supported bikes. Also, 'branding' the bike at the distributor's whim, again can't help in the long term, that's not to say Lexmoto & Sinnis, here in UK haven't made a success of doing so. Don't get me wrong, it happens in other sectors, vans especially, but they need to try and build a brand loyalty, which takes time. I think, if, the bigger manufacturers such as CFMoto, Shineray, Zhongshen, collaborated, and set up dealerships, actually selling Zhongshen (Not Honley, Rocketa, Minsk) etc, ensured quality, provide good customer pre-sale & after sale support, then there would be a good chance of them breaking out of the niche market. However, pulling out of markets, leaving existing customers high and dry, will only re-enforce the opinions that chinese bikes/manufacturers cannot be trusted, which really would be a shame, as there really are some really good chinese bikes around.

    If manufacturers don't want to setup their own distribution channels themselves, or in partnership with other manufacturers, should take more care as to who they deal with in the countries they want to sell their bikes. For example, in the UK, Lexmoto & Sinnis have good reputations, as does CSC in the USA, however, in the UK WK Bikes, have an awful reputation, and this can only reflect badly on CFMoto, and other manufacturers of bikes they sell.

    I do hope CFMoto, do continue to try in Europe, as I think, over time, the quality of their bikes will win through, although, in the UK at least, I would suggest they find a new partner.

    Cheers

    Tony
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  9. #19 Re: CFMOTO 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    Cfmoto did not to date sell enough to justify an EU distribution subsidiary, if they had set up one up it would have sucked up all their resources and they would have already left the market. So they give that to their partners.
    These distribution partners can only afford to offer what sells well and must drop what does not. WK may be about to drop their Cfmoto offerings? Unless Cfmoto is offering them financial incentives to stay with them. I would say they should and to work through the problems. Better products and better after sale support.
    The most pragmatic solution at this point is for these distributors to create subsidiaries for each branded product line and let their suppliers see the numbers and to work cooperatively with them. That would present a subsidiary for WK that sold Cfmoto under the parent branding. If they did and if Cfmoto could see actual operating numbers they would then likely create a line of A1 offerings to ensure they actually had incoming revenue to keep the subsidiary viable. Simply because idle inventory generates a negative cash flow. The distributor is carrying them on the back of other better selling models that actually generate revenue.
    In that would be investment, part parent company and part distribution partner in the form of a subsidiary. With shares and that be for profit and loses. My bet is that is not likely to happen because of egos and clashes in idealisms? Not to mention greed and sneaky underhandedness.
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  10. #20 Re: CFMOTO 
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    I suspect you're right, but it is a real shame, as, taking CFMoto for example, their product range is now really starting to look interesting, and is now set for a riders progression from CBT to full A license, but to get that progression, you need to build customer loyalty. It will need time, perseverance, however, the more people ride their bikes, and write positive reports in forums etc, then, other people opinions will change. However, withdrawing from a market, will only re-enforce peoples opinions, that chinese bike manufacturers cannot not be relied upon. If they are to go it alone, they should see the current bikes effectively loss leaders leading to a profitable future. If they have a good range of products, and so far I do think CFMoto do, I do think it will pay off in the long run. Just look at the 125cc market here in the UK, whilst there is still some prejudice towards chinese bikes, generally speaking, the current offerings are well received, and, hold their value pretty well in the used sale market.
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