Had an accident

Well it takes all sorts! Glad you are so well connected. You seem to be reasonably intelligent from your posts elsewhere here and your opinions are as valid as any one elses especially as you live there.
But it is China and you are a visitor and as you state, you don't really care if you have to leave the Fun Palace. Some want to stay there and fit in and learn the ropes.
One of other tools for getting through life is to find the smooth path, it comes from a balanced perception, and yours is an effort towards that but jumps from extreme to extreme so expends more energy.

Compassion Grasshopper, compassion is relationships is also the inner path of guanxi. All over the planet.

If I had to label myself, I would say that I am anti-religious, however, I have to toss a great big Hallelujah to that! I feel like that is one reason why I am glad this forum is hear... So I vent in places that are appropriate and won't get me into trouble later ;0)

Compassion is interesting as well. I want to give compassion, and the fact that I do so often gets me criticism from my chinese girl friend. But to me, compassion is silent. Compassion is genuine. Compassion is doing something good to help someone. I desire to find a place in the world that will accept this view of it.

When someone demands something because they feel they are owed, that stinks of greedy. Myself if I talked to the family, they thanked me for bringing their daughter to the hospital when no one else would, ask to see if anyone riding the bike was hurt. At that point, I would feel comfortable discussing how well set up they were, and offering to cover any of the expenses. This I want. This I could live with. This would be utopia.

And only judging by the description under your name, it seems that you display a bit more wisdom that comes with age, that I have yet to acquire, but I am willing to listen to.

Reading this thread has given me inspiration to research the safety of having a long term life in China, which I flip flop on. I know some business leaders around, some of which are foreigners or at least foreign educated. I really want to set up meetings with them so I can figure out how to keep myself from being taken advantage of...

Thank you for the clarity.

Blimey, understood for once! Apart from the fact that people always think it is religious but it has fuck all to do with any religon, creed, dogma or faith. If you watch the world long enough, it looks back at you and it is a great gaping abyss. There is some pattern discernable though - and some of the Chinese worked it out a loooong time ago with yin yang and chi and all that. At the same time most of our western ancestors were running around clubbing each other with sticks and later, sharpened steel. That is human nature, western or eastern, all the same. But we had thinkers and philosophers at that time as well as they did and they had also worked it out because really it is all around you and also within you, your nature.

In the end it is just your relationship with yourself, then those around you, as close or not as you let them, and then all the others. You draw the boundaries. Understanding that is more instinctive in a society such as the Chinese seems to be (to me from outside). My thinking is that the difference is probably something basic, to do with western nuclear family and eastern extended family but of course that would only be a small part and over-simplified.

'Being taken advantage' of is also western thinking. People do what is natural, except that socially and culturally, what is natural is different for us. It is behaviour and if not inherent, learnt so you respond at an instinctive reactive level. You know what is your position and your connections and that is where you stand. 'Face' is part of it. Those around you recognise that position instinctively and thus do or do not take advantage as you would see it. but there is also subtler responses within human nature. So after protecting the 'self' as you pointed out above, you are then able to offer compassion or understanding or bounty to others.

To do so heedlessly and from a weak position is foolish and seen as such. No westerner is seen as connected immediately and their behaviour supports this perception. Thus it is natural to take what you can from them because they often flaunt, or seem to flaunt both wealth and ignorance. There is no remorse in fleecing a sheep. And as an addendum, westerners on motorcycles are even more confusing. They should be in black Mercedes or Ferraris of course, if they have 'position'. To not do so would instinctively be confusing, even felt as insult or at least a disregard of natural rules.

To offer bounty however, from strength, shown by your understanding not your wealth, is the beginning of understanding guanxi as it also implies a reciprocal. And thus you cement your position and the ties of those around you. It is ultimately from your understanding and your manner that the balance is found. Even if the Chinese pick up western ideas and values they will change them to suit their own culture, else they would feel uncomfortable in their own homes.

That is part of what is happening now and I believe they actually show some restraint.

Imagine a black dude on an unlicensed bike that the police and locals cannot afford, all blinged up and flaunting even in his clothes and hairstyle and possessions a large amount of wealth. Imagine that guy as a black pimp with a young white girl wrapped around him, talking ghetto to the cops and bystanders in some red-neck town after running over a young woman - who is culturally quite low but still a breeding female and to some extent protected, especially from outsiders. As I said, it is attitude, what you project and that comes from what you understand. Many human interactions are instinctive even inter-culturally.

This is not aimed at anyone, just a ramble as usual.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wanglong

Ass.


We all know that the law is pointless in China. A chinese state official stated this directly when foreign press pressed her about the reporter whose jaw was broken by police because he took pictures of a major shopping district on a recent sunday.


This is China, and here, you can't depend on society to take care of you just because you are doing what you are supposed to. You have to be like a fighter pilot if you are going to survive. Constantly on your guard, constantly looking out for what can possibly happen, and preparing contingencies for those possibilities. Here, you are responsible for yourself.

---

:eek2: I hate camera man haters, and from everything I have read (from other places than MCM too) I think I hate very much Chinese Police. Very glad to live in Finland where we have this thing called "angry mobs".

Being a fighter pilot while riding a bike sounds good. Situational awareness! Don't let the bandit bounce ya! (and not blaming you of the accident, like someone said, could had happened to anyone. If a pedestrian choses to bounce you suddenly in the street it is very much like a sudden ambush.)

Talking about being a fighter pilot, life will be good soon :clap: ride on the ground and fly on the air with incoming IL-2 Cliffs of Dover :deal:



My Skyteam I already took the the roads this weekend!

I hope this thing get's over and done with quickly for you, Slabo. I try to imagine myself in your shoes and I think I'd also have done the same. Learning from what I've read on this post though, it makes me want to do the opposite.

I wouldn't say that I'm religious but I do believe in Karma to a certain extent. Sometimes we do something that we shouldn't and karma catches up with us at a later date. Sometimes something terrible happens to you that you don't deserve but in the future something will make up for that. I hope things pick up for you in the future. Perhaps there is something more that can be salvaged from this situation but from the look and smell of Chinese law and attitude it seems that this thing is on the way to ending the way it is.

My first motorbike accident was on Halloween 2009. It was the first and only time I'd ever hit anything other than just the ground while riding. I'd been riding my bike for less than three months and I was still trying to follow their stupid road rules by riding in the bike lane. It was raining and the roads were covered with autumn leaves so that didn't help with my bikes already poor braking capability.
A woman drove her car out from a driveway right into the bike lane and stopped, blocking the whole bike lane, to give way to traffic on the main road. She'd come out of a driveway that was covered from my vision by a large, bridge-supporting pillar and I only saw her after she'd already taken up 75% of the bike lane.
I braked hard and landed on my right-hand side then slid into the side of her car doing about 30kph. Got a bruise on my hip and about 300rmb worth of parts to replace on the bike. The woman got out of the car, hand's shaking and looked as guilty as hell but didn't hesitate to call her goon squad of Chinese guys to come over and tell me I needed to pay her 1000rmb for the dent I'd made in her car. I gave them 400rmb which was all I had in my pocket at the time, gave her my phone number and told her I'd get the rest of the money for her later. Never called her back and just changed my number when I decided that these people were only after my money and no real justice.
To this day I still don't know whether or not the police would've helped me out with that situation had I been a bit more compos mentis (aware of the Chinese attitude toward this thing) back then but I think it would have been the best thing to do had I just picked the bike back up and ridden away smiling:riding:.
That little story has nothing on your current situation but it's just another example of what Chinese people are accustomed to.
The first thing I'll do if anything like this ever happens again is get my phone out and take at least a dozen photos. I hope it never gets this far but I also have friends who have family in high ranking police positions in Zibo who I would call at the soonest opportunity. If you don't do everything you can then other people will use that to their advantage. I can't afford to forget that this is 'China':chinese:.

Her fault, not that it matters. The more I read about what happened to you, the angrier I got. Good luck.

Aye and I am getting angry at all the immature, self-centred, western arrogance I am seeing. It is bloody China you are in, not London or New Yoik! You are guests not fucking conquerors. Temper your anger with understanding or compassion or fuck off back home and play in your sandpit I reckon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jape

Aye and I am getting angry at all the immature, self-centred, western arrogance I am seeing. It is bloody China you are in, not London or New Yoik! You are guests not fucking conquerors.

---

Western Arrogance????? WTF are you talking about? If you believe arrogance is based off the application of legal rules and norms in a given context, then yes Jape, I am immature. I understand that when any foreigner is in ANY country they are a guest. That is not open to debate. However, if said foreigner was abiding by all established rules of the road and is still held legally accountable for another's mistake, bollux. We all understand this is China where more often than not these rules are not applied, but that does not mean we should be happy go lucky and prance around excited because yet again justice (or hard fact) was again ignored. jape, i seriously question your logic on this one. Go conquer Canada or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GJN

Go conquer Canada or something.

---

Whoa nelly! Keep us outta this! Our entire Canadian military is out of the country right now ... all 120 personnel!

Keep in mind, however, that we're all damn good ice hockey players - we're taught how to fist fight as soon as we strap on skates at age 3.

As if the western law is so equal and great for all! Justice! Yay! The various constitutions. Yay!. Usually bollox. Fine as an ideal maybe. Try being poor and getting justice. It is what you can buy or what you can influence ALL OVER THE BLOODY WORLD (including Canada). And we have had a couple of hundred years of various systems of justice and legality to work on. Women were chattels not so long ago and couldn't vote. Now they can but still fight for equality. 'Blacks' were second class citizens recently, Now, the immigrants, the poor, the disabled, the less intelligent are still the 'blacks'. Not a perfect system for any of them. China has had what, twenty years? And they do not think or assume as you do anyway. Not their way. Be angry. Fine. Get real too. If it were just 'logic' we would all be wealthy and well-fed and loving and coffee-coloured.

You never jumped a fence? OooRa! You never drove drunk? Wahoo! You perfect? Marry me.

Effectively Chinese have had as much time to build their civilisation as western countries. Not 20 years. And I for one have fought for justice on my own expence in Finnish Law System and won with me myself being the "lawyer". The system works.

The Chinese girl got bad wounds, but it could had ended other way. That kind of accidents are very dangerous to motorcyclists. It could had ended with the motorcyclists become paraplectic or quadriplegia. That is very bad. Now motorcyclists were lucky to walk away, but it could had easily went very differently.

I don't know why this has got to me so, maybe I will let it go soon! Meanwhile a 22 year old young Chinese woman is feeling pain. And it is not a nice pain or easy to deal with. And she is feeling fear and confusion and suffering the consequences of a simple accident. Frightened of the operation and possible infection and maybe just wishing she had been more careful. She may have been tired or inattentive or late or excited as she wanted to get to her lover or to work or just thoroughly stupid but she was in an accident. As was Naim and his lass. two people from diferent parts of the planet met at a point in time and space at a rate of knots. Naim did the right thing. Her parents are doing the best they can for their daughter. Life is not fair but it is real. So it encapsulates in a small way a clash of cultures and opinions? And anger is all we can show with debate about the law?

We should all club together and send her flowers and best wishes as a group. Try that instead of anger and blame for once. I will send a hundred bucks, fifty fifty to Naim support fund and to the lass. Money where my mouth is. Naim, or anyone do you have paypal, Jeff, Mr. Canada, anyone take my money please? I am serious, do it. It isn't a false gesture or charity or a precedent except in decency. Some one organise it, just PM me an account number and it will be there tomorrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jape

Aye and I am getting angry at all the immature, self-centred, western arrogance I am seeing. It is bloody China you are in, not London or New Yoik! You are guests not fucking conquerors. Temper your anger with understanding or compassion or fuck off back home and play in your sandpit I reckon.

---

I'm not to prove some idea or attitude is wrong, but sorry Jape, that probably has gone a little bit too far.
As a local Chinese, it's stupid for me to criticise my own country in English (I made similar whining about work ethics, although that would achieved nothing, danger and trap still happen around us. And I should talk about those issues with my parents instead), but I true heartily support Wanglong's suggestion on 'how to take care myself and not being easily taken advantage of'. Time passes on, I'm getting sick of complete-selfish and immature grownups, and my compassion towards those people has worn off. Hopeless as same thing will repeat. This time is no exception, I wouldn't show much mercy to that girl who is also responsible for her action (crossing street without looking traffic, desire for unnecessary surgery).
best to both parties' recovery.
TD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jape

Try being poor and getting justice.!

---

This is not a question of equal representation. In the situation described, the foreigner's right to any form of legal defense is stripped from him before the question of a judicial solution came into being.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jape

You never jumped a fence? OooRa! You never drove drunk? Wahoo! You perfect? Marry me.

---

No I have never jumped a large center divide on a high capacity motorway while drunk. Guess I just haven't lived enough yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jape

If it were just 'logic' we would all be wealthy and well-fed and loving and coffee-coloured.

---

If by coffee-coloured you mean white chocolate mocha frappacino then yes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moilami

And I for one have fought for justice on my own expence in Finnish Law System and won with me myself being the "lawyer".

---

Awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moilami

The Chinese girl got bad wounds, but it could had ended other way.

---

Correct. And in that case Slabo would have to cover BOTH his medical bills and those of the girl he hit. In this case who do we feel more sorry for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jape

I don't know why this has got to me so, maybe I will let it go soon! Meanwhile a 22 year old young Chinese woman is feeling pain.

---

Maybe its because you are a grumpy old sod.

It is unfortunate that anyone experiences being on the receiving end of an accident, but just because somebody is hurt when they acted without considering the consequence to their action means they receive a get out of jail free card? I’m not laughing at this injured local Chinese girl, I’m saying that she is financially and legally responsible for her own mistake.

I usually take shortcuts when I can, and many times that means breaking the law. But I like to say I know what I'm doing when I do that. For example, to save riding ~2km, I've crossed pedestrian bridges on the bike! It was dark and the streets were practically empty. Now let's the bridge were to fall down, it would be my fault, and the civil engineer's fault, and the contractors fault, and the inspector's fault....etc...
In the meantime, I'm laying on the street and hurt(not dead of course)... I forgot where I'm going with this..


Whose fault? I was riding inside the second ring road, on the bus lane. I don't know, I suppose it's 40% my fault, my offense normally being threatening for myself, and only punishable by a 200rmb fine. But her offense, well, i think she knows by now. Stupid? Yes, i think we're both stupid. Rush hour and everyone was in a hurry, and, at the right moment, we chose to 'meet' .. kaboom! Also, I was wearing my full face helmet, and I wasn't quiet used to it yet, I rarely wear it, especially if I'm just riding around the city. It was cold that day however. I guess I was being complacent, they say the majority of accidents happen after two year's riding, well... I'm a bit late, should have been last year, but I did it eventually.

Anyway the girl and the parents were very civilized about everything, they did thank us for doing the right thing. Also, there was no threatening, shouting, or any kind of abuse. Also she didn't try to fabricate a story, her account of the incident is pretty much the same as ours. Money, yes, they tried to get everything they could, I would if I were in their place. Nothing unusual so far, this same story could happen anywhere in the world.

Now the twisted stuff.
1) The hospital said she needs an operation! Funny if this were to happen in a small village somewhere and we went to the local village doctor, she would be safer.
2) The police wont issue a report about the incident! They said they will only do that if we don't reach a settlement.
Now that's just confusing for both parties. Things could be much much simpler if it weren't for these two issues.

Did I mention the bike was confiscated? The police said they'll hold onto it until the issue is resolved. :wheelchair::wheelchair:

Thanks for the offer jape, I don't have a paypal account, but maybe buy me and the girl 7 pizzas when you get here. As for flowers for the girl, we already gave her flowers and two big boxes of milk, or something....

I think i can see what jape is talking about. It's actually similar to what's happening with us. No one is really angry, not me, my misses, the girl or her parents.. we're all dealing with it. The only confusing part was dealing with the law and the hospital ....grrrrrrr

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slabo

... we already gave her flowers and two big boxes of milk, or something....

---

Perhaps a kilo of salt? That could've resolved everything a few days ago! :lol8:

BTW, you've got a good attitude Slabo - good on ya! :thumbsup:

If I ever decide to get hit by a full-faced moto-rider, I hope it is you.

Cheers

I agree, you're attitude is second to none Slabo. You're handling it all really well.
I find it amazing that you can look at this situation from both sides, i'd be blinded by fury for sure.

I just can't understand how anyone could jump a fence right onto a highway during rush hour and have any grounds for compo after the inevitable happens.
Anyway, that's not the issue anymore, i just wanted to commend your attitude and wish you the best of luck...

...You're a better man than me. And you deserve a break. ( no pun intended)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slabo

Did I mention the bike was confiscated? The police said they'll hold onto it until the issue is resolved. :wheelchair::wheelchair:

---

What? Your bike got taken? Totally ridiculous. The police are just using it as leverage to expedite resolution of the "case", even though they are too lazy to document it. Again, fulfilling their role as a mediator rather than enforcers of the law (which in western terms is supposed to represent justice).

Slabo, you are truly the gentleman for putting up all of this with a great attitude.

Slabo,
You are handling this crash very well. I would agree that there is fault to share between you and the young lady.

Two questions:
Why do you keep mentioning that you were wearing a full face helmet? Are you implying that it obstructs your vision?

Why were you riding in the bus lane? I assume it is a lane reserved for buses but I could be wrong. Most bus lanes around here are for buses to stop and load/unload passengers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by barnone

Why were you riding in the bus lane? I assume it is a lane reserved for buses but I could be wrong. Most bus lanes around here are for buses to stop and load/unload passengers.

---

If it's kind of similar to the situation in BJ then it is more like a lane that is reserved for busses during rush hour (6:00-9:00 and 16:00-19:00 something like that).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by barnone

Slabo,
You are handling this crash very well. I would agree that there is fault to share between you and the young lady.

Two questions:
Why do you keep mentioning that you were wearing a full face helmet? Are you implying that it obstructs your vision?

---

I see perfectly fine with the full face helmet, but I'm just not used to it. I won't say I can't see with the full face helmet, just don't see the same as my regular helmet. I have to move my neck differently maybe... Something, just different. Just replaying the incident in my mind, I don't remember seeing the girl. I only know from my girlfriend and later the girl's statement that she crossed from over the fence. But really, I just saw her bouncing off the front of the bike.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by barnone

Why were you riding in the bus lane? I assume it is a lane reserved for buses but I could be wrong. Most bus lanes around here are for buses to stop and load/unload passengers.

---

I ride like a pingpong ball between cars and busses, bouncing off everything, trying to keep a safe distane all the time. Like barry said, the left most lanes are reserved for buses, the two middle lanes were blocked, and I wanted to turn left ahead, so I took the bus lane. It's not really an offence, I didn't really get in anyone's way. Well, I did this time, ouch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wrangler

What? Your bike got taken? Totally ridiculous. The police are just using it as leverage to expedite resolution of the "case", even though they are too lazy to document it. Again, fulfilling their role as a mediator rather than enforcers of the law (which in western terms is supposed to represent justice).

Slabo, you are truly the gentleman for putting up all of this with a great attitude.

---

Err, not trying to be a gentleman. I live here, and most probably I will marry a Chinese woman. I can't keep looking at things from my foreign perspective. I must see it from the Chinese point of view or I'll go crazy. Imagine I were in this alone... awww, I would probably flip and punch everyone in sight. Nothing would make sense. If I have a one in a million opinion compared to my surroundings, and chose to keep it, I'd be seen as a ~~~ I can't find the word.

I've seen and heard of many situations like this before, although usually property damage and not injury. A few years ago an American friend was stationary at a red light and was hit from behind and forced to pay 500RMB, because a crowd turned up and developed an opinion that the foreigner should pay because he is richer (but 0% at fault). In China the compensation rules and culture don't make sense, nor ideas about road rules. Because of this using a motorcycle in a Chinese city is fraught with danger, that if the worst happens you are very likely to be paying money to someone who is at fault. More time riding in a city or town means more risk, and that if you hit any cyclist, ebike or pedestrian it will almost certainly be considered your fault. Don't feel bad about it, the situation can be just as ridiculous between Chinese road users.

My attitude is after 8 years here, I always save the motorcycle for the long rides out of town that help me unwind, especially if I'd be riding a motorcycle less than 4km, bicycles keep you fit. However we all live in different size cities where riding a bicycle can be impractical due to the distances involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZMC888

My attitude is after 8 years here, I always save the motorcycle for the long rides out of town that help me unwind, especially if I'd be riding a motorcycle less than 4km, bicycles keep you fit. However we all live in different size cities where riding a bicycle can be impractical due to the distances involved.

---

ZMC888 makes a tremendously good point here. Those of us who attempt to use a motorcycle for daily transportation in these Chinese megacities are at far far greater risk of getting slaboed (Naim, your handle is now a verb!) than those of us who use it only to get OUT of town. I'm in my 50s and live in a giant city of more than 20 million souls, but I rarely if ever venture out into the city on my motorbike. Too much stress, too much risk, and, above all, far too little enjoyment. Unless it's unreasonably far, like more than 25km, I'll get there by bicycle. In fact, I pride myself on my ability to get pretty much anywhere in Shanghai quickly and efficiently and "healthfully" on a pushbike. That's not to say I haven't had accidents on the bicycle; I've had two very serious ones, one under the wheels of a taxi and another caused 100% by an aggressive motorcyclist.

But I'll keep using the bicycle as my primary transport, backed up by buses and the awesome metro and, once in a very blue moon, a taxi. Personal preference, and won't work in all cities, especially those with lots of hills or frigid winters, but in Shanghai (and Beijing, though less so due to the huge distances and the takeover of bicycle paths by cars), bicycling is awesome.

cheers

Yes, true. Riding in rush hour in a city is risky. That's one reason why I don't totally blame the girl.
I also have a roadbike, and I really enjoy riding it. But got used to the motorbike chauffeuring the misses around. Sometimes I have to be in many places with a laptop in one day and the bike is just perfect for that. But yes, I do take responsibility for being a lazy. When I got the bike, I always said I will only ride outside the city. OK, so finally now I know who to blame for all of this.!!! Fight tonight!

Slabo, you seem to be the most level one in this whole situation and i admire your rationality!

I probably would have done the same thing and then hated myself for it as my all savings were being raped. After reading all the comments, i reckon wanglong is the one i'd go with. Do the right thing if you can be sure that you've protected yourself first, don't leave anything up to good will or open for argument.

Jape, when did you become the china expert? I, and i'm sure most others on this forum who actually live in china, came here years ago full of ideals and concepts of fairness. Watching friends get dragged through shit and bullied by police for months because someone else didn't look while they going through red lights slowly washes those ideals out of you. Someone coined it a few posts up there: getting hit by, or even hitting, a foreigner means payday. There's usually no fairness involved, it's just "let's see how much we can get out of him". Does 40000RMB for a broken arm not illustrate that clearly enough?

Of course there are exceptions where both parties settle the situation fairly and in a civilised way, but those are exceptions. 99% of the time you better be wearing your chastity belt as you've got a nice reaming coming your way. Jape you could do worst than listening to the ones who live here for your upcoming trip to china. It's not the same here.

I'm not a China expert Felix and I never pretend that. I always say somewhere or other that I am often talking generally and responding to tone or manner. Too much bullshit western arrogance knocking the Chinese is what comes over on here, too often. Ex-pat club of cynical westerners who know best and everything they see is wrong, stupid, TIC. If you have become weary of it, then go back to 'wherever' and get a reality check about downtown back home is what I reckon. Then return and appreciate the place called China even if it isn't a suburb of some western town or stay home. Your last sentence is exactly what I have been saying. It is obviously not the same there, so suck it up an d go with it.

But td-ref also told me I was wrong and I am not going to argue with him even if I would with you.

I have lived and worked in many places around the world and I learned a bit I hope, over four decades of that since I first left UK. And Chinese philosophy and so on has been a minor interest of mine for 40 yrs as well when everyone else thought they were the 'yellow peril'. I read Sun Tzu when I was 20, it was a mandatory part of my training and I became fascinated. but a couple of books doenot make me an expert. Yup. Just opiniated.

As you rightly say, I may find it intolerable when I come over. But I don't think so. I recognised many many years ago that the Ugly American and the Arrogant Pom were causing a lot of trouble around the world. when I was your age we were jointly napalming half of Asia and setting up Heroin factories to fund it. And in Eire and Northern Ireland where I have spent a LOT of time, UK was never flavour of the month. Your generation is changing that a lot but unconsciously the attitude is still overt to any one sensitive to it. My generation just went in and shot any fucker argued with us or wnated not be enslaved, economically if not literally, aye, in Ireland as well. I just do what I can to pass on my experience, my philosophy and understanding. I don't call it wisdom, that's not for me to say. However, I usually continue anything I say in forum by PM if I think further explanation is required or that I have inflamed an issue inadvertently.

Not that I mind a stoush sometimes when I am bored or grumpy, however I usually just shake my head at the amount of stupidity some express. That is nothing to do with 'China' it is usually simple ignorance of basics in human nature. I am sick of it, so I say what I say and hope to make a small difference.

Everyone else is an idiot but me :lol8: Just joking.

I find discussion here interesting. A little bit shaking here and there. Criticism and counter criticism. Usually that is the way to go unless people begin to be too emo.

I myself am very bored to hear bashing of western culture. Luckily it is not so fashionable anymore as it used to be.

What is interesting to think how the world would be without western culture :eek2::eekers::eekers::eekers: Noooooooo!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jape

Too much bullshit western arrogance knocking the Chinese is what comes over on here, too often. Ex-pat club of cynical westerners who know best and everything they see is wrong, stupid, TIC...

---

Actually Jape i could not agree with you more, one of the things that has absolutely not changed in me since i moved here is how i hate to see some foreigners shit on everything about china. That there is an attitude, not longevity of expatriation. You meet people here who have been in china two months and already reckon that everything they do is superior to their hosts, from the way they eat to the shape of their poo. I don't like that attitude and get embarrassed when i see it. These dickheads make the rest of us look bad and can *uck off right back to where they came from. Pardon my languag*.

Part of the price of accepting a foreign culture though is dealing with what you think is wrong. We're talking about a place where it took 5 minutes for someone to muster up the courage to help ChinaV out from hanging upside down by the leg in a rubbish filled ditch for fear of what might happen to them. You WILL get screwed. I always try to be charming and pleasant to my hosts and am grateful for every day they let me spend here, but if the 'accident situation' arises i don't know. If i'm in the wrong i will suck it up and accept the consequences, of that i'm sure. But in the case that i get in a crash for someone else's mistake, that i'm ok and they are too... i don't know man, i may just run. I would never leave someone on the side of the road, i couldn't bring myself to do that. But if they were in the wrong, they were ok and i could get out of there, i don't think i'd wait around to see what the police think about it.

Having written this might make me look like a right asshole, that may be, but understand that the minute i set foot back home these attitudes change. For here i don't know, i'm still undecided about the best way to act in a situation like that and am open to debate.

Everyone usually thinks what they do or think is the best way to think of what they know - else they would think in some other way. Further because of that everyone usually thinks they know how other people should think.