Why did they ban Motorcycles

[RANT]What is it with car drivers? Worldwide phenomenon. Guy buys a car, thinks every other vehicle should be banned, bikes are always target no1.

Can't reverse or use a mirror? How about parking assist, a rear camera and blind spot detection?
Can't brake properly? How about electronic handbrakes, ABS and collision avoidance systems like brake assist?
Can't use a throttle or clutch properly? How about traction control and cruise control or future ACC car herding or automatic transmission?
Can't steer? How about lane assist and lane change assist?
Can't use a map or understand the suns position in the sky? How about GPS?

3 bicycles, one motorcycle, last thing I drove with four wheels was a shopping trolley, but still I'd love to drive a real car (rear wheel drive 200hp plus with no retard-friendly electronic gizmos) on a track or mountain road, but f *** these sanitized front wheel drive moron boxes dumbing down skills and polluting the environment. Tedious lame stupid things please someone destroy these satan cages and recycle them in something worthwhile, like soda cans. :eek2: [/RANT]

As a not-so-long-time lurker and a fairly recent two-wheeled, motorised transport convert, I have to speak up in defence of e-bikes and e-scooters in the interest of fairness and balance, as reading through this now resurrected thread, there seems to be a slight prejudice against e-scooters. Fact is, the issue which we (myself included) have with e-scooters/bikes isn't with the vehicles themselves, but the people riding them being blatant law transgressing and inconsiderate individuals who abuse the impunity offered to them by China's (draconian) the-priciest-vehicle-is-responsible-for-the-accident rules. Banning electric bikes/scooters is not the solution to Beijing's congestion and pollution issues.

I think we have to accept that electric bikes and scooters will be part of the transport mix of the very near future (not just in China), so the question is, GIVEN this reality, how do we make things work as smoothly as possible? How about this for a start:

1) Anything under 350W (maximum output from an average human on a pedal bike // max speed approx. 30km/h) gets classed as a bicycle and is required to stick to bicycle paths.
2) Anything between 350W and 3000W (max speed of approx. 65-70km/h) gets a new designation as a 'electric scooter' and is allowed to use both bike paths (where it is restricted to 30 km/h) and the far right lane of roads. A corollary of this is that this new class of vehicles is NOT allowed to perform manoeuvres which require a vehicle to be on the far left lane i.e. make left turns at junctions, U-turns etc.
3) Anything over 3000W is treated as a motorcycle. The rider will be required to have a motorcycle license and the bike must be plated with a new class of license plates for electric motorcycles which have the same restrictions as the 京A plate, let's say 京D, D for dian (电). I understand that the Beijing government is making a push for more electric vehicles on the road on environmental grounds (at least publicly), so keep registrations for the 京D plate open (if environmental concerns really are the reasons for encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles).

And of course, having said all this, for goodness sake, make all bikes, petrol, electric or meat powered, and all pedestrians stop at red lights! Green = GO! Red = STOP! Fines for not doing so should hurt - RMB5 doesn't do it. How about a crisp, new RMB50 note? Pedestrians/cyclists/e-bikers who cross at a red have blatantly and wilfully ignored the law and so have no defence against a fine - however severe - whatsoever.

(Disclaimer: I'm one of the few electric bikers - but not the only one - who stops at EVERY single red at traffic lights; and I'd fall under category 2 of the above classification).

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Originally Posted by branng

... the issue which we (myself included) have with e-scooters/bikes isn't with the vehicles themselves, but the people riding them being blatant law transgressing and inconsiderate individuals who abuse the impunity offered to them by China's (draconian) the-priciest-vehicle-is-responsible-for-the-accident rules. Banning electric bikes/scooters is not the solution to Beijing's congestion and pollution issues.

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+1 on that. For in-city riding, I'd certainly switch to an e-scooter IF the battery recharging wasn't such an arduous chore, the range was >200 kms on a charge, and there wasn't a deterioration in cold weather. I'd love to have one of those Zero motorcycles manufactured in California - be a great all-around bike for Beijing. I don't see why China hasn't copied it.

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Originally Posted by branng

I think we have to accept that electric bikes and scooters will be part of the transport mix of the very near future (not just in China), so the question is, GIVEN this reality, how do we make things work as smoothly as possible? How about this for a start:

1) Anything under 350W (maximum output from an average human on a pedal bike // max speed approx. 30km/h) gets classed as a bicycle and is required to stick to bicycle paths.
2) Anything between 350W and 3000W (max speed of approx. 65-70km/h) gets a new designation as a 'electric scooter' and is allowed to use both bike paths (where it is restricted to 30 km/h) and the far right lane of roads. A corollary of this is that this new class of vehicles is NOT allowed to perform manoeuvres which require a vehicle to be on the far left lane i.e. make left turns at junctions, U-turns etc.
3) Anything over 3000W is treated as a motorcycle. The rider will be required to have a motorcycle license and the bike must be plated with a new class of license plates for electric motorcycles which have the same restrictions as the 京A plate, let's say 京D, D for dian (电). I understand that the Beijing government is making a push for more electric vehicles on the road on environmental grounds (at least publicly), so keep registrations for the 京D plate open (if environmental concerns really are the reasons for encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles).

And of course, having said all this, for goodness sake, make all bikes, petrol, electric or meat powered, and all pedestrians stop at red lights! Green = GO! Red = STOP! Fines for not doing so should hurt - RMB5 doesn't do it. How about a crisp, new RMB50 note? Pedestrians/cyclists/e-bikers who cross at a red have blatantly and wilfully ignored the law and so have no defence against a fine - however severe - whatsoever.

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Very reasonable, except I'd advocate even higher fines, and unwavering enforcement.

Sadly, the Beijing government tried to ban all e-bikes/e-scooters a couple of years ago. Again, I never understood that ridiculous policy proposal.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

+1 on that. For in-city riding, I'd certainly switch to an e-scooter IF the battery recharging wasn't such an arduous chore, the range was >200 kms on a charge, and there wasn't a deterioration in cold weather. I'd love to have one of those Zero motorcycles manufactured in California - be a great all-around bike for Beijing. I don't see why China hasn't copied it.

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Realistically, I get about 70 km on my e-scooter if riding at full pelt (45 km/h - roughly the average speed which busses here in Beijing get up to). 100 km at 35 km/h. I could've gotten more capacity in my battery pack - maybe an extra 20% - but the range I opted for is sufficient for my daily travel requirements. My (removable) battery pack comes in at around 17 kg (38 lbs) which I think is luggable, but I prefer riding my e-scooter straight into the lift, straight into my flat and have it plugged in - which is presumably, exactly what you'd do if you did get your hands on a Zero motorcycle.

Speaking of which, the 2013 Zero S is sweet! Probably have a better chance getting your hands on a Brammo though, seeing that they've already established dealerships in HK. Both the Zero S and the Brammo Empulse are coming up USD20K though. Ouch!

The Central Government should have stuck to it's plans several years ago where they'd proposed a law/regulatory change that would have required all riders of ebikes no matter the output of the electric hub/motor to secure a drivers/riders/operators license. Makes perfect sense that any road user needs an introduction to the "road rules" and applicable laws. It would also made it compulsory that all ebikes (whether scooter or bicycle design) had to have a license plate (which for the scooter style is compulsory now anyway). The other important addition was a type of insurance, third party same as required for all other legal road going vehicles. Problem was that as is common practise here TIC! vested interest groups (industry lead) and netizens banded together and conducted huge, vocal and sustained publicity campaigns so much so that the government backed down, much to the chagrin of many other road users I'd suspect, and henceforth the status-quo we see before us, remains.

I think such a law and the three requirements need to be revisited and that the government should adopt the regulations - the sooner the better IMO.

I've also had my share of ebikes/escooters (had several many years ago, SH then Ningbo), and while very useful and what I thought, user-friendly, lack the required ability to cover distance (I often got to within 60km range, and would run the battery flat trying to go places (local mountains and beyond even though I knew the range limitations). The range limitation along with the cost of purchase, i.e. not that far away from the cost of small 50-125cc scoot with an internal combustion engine, are significant barriers to me today. While the Brambo, Zero et al., are encouraging there's still a range barrier to overcome and to me that is a huge stumbling block. There's also a slight misconception as to the supposed environmental cost of all electric vehicles. They are not anywhere near as "green" or environmentally friendly as is claimed - though I wish they were. Pity, and I might add I'm in no way anti-electric, I subscribe to a number of online "electric" publications e.g. evworld. Cost per mile/km the electric vehicle doesn't cut it economically at this point in time, when one factors in ALL costs. No, akin to the beta versus VHS tape debate, electric propulsion in it's current form is not the solution, while hydrogen is IMO, but as with the beta tape industry it is being left out in the cold as mainstream vehicle manufacturers race to adopt and fill inventory with some type of electric or hybrid offering so as not to be seen to miss out an emerging market share, which is partly driven by such industry lead decisions.

Anyway back to motorcycle bans. I think it has as much to do with the basic tenant of peasant/farming socioeconomic status/perception, as well as a mode of choice for some thieves (purse snatchers), polluting engine designs (two strokes and poor maintenance), poor quality standards of some motorcycle designs, lack of ability in relation to enforcement (few jurisdictions in China send out tickets for motorcycle infringements), general education level of many riders, central government policies to encourage vehicle (cars upwards) manufacturing (export policies, R&D incentives etc), local consumption policies/incentives/subsidies for the locals to take up car ownership, ROI, industry wide maturing leading to export opportunities and much much more. All act as impediments and barriers to motorcycle, use, ownership etc. Overly simplistic, but I'm not going to sit here and type a thesis (already writing one).

Basically the whole arena is marked by both it's complexity and convoluted-ness.

Motorcycles, said it 100 times 250cc and above same plates as a car or another color, same fines, same insurance, however same rights such as using a regular road, freeways etc. Motorcycles 250cc and below stay on yellow plates as now.

Ebikes, easy as Branng says 350W and below treated as bicycles, above that some licensing and registration.

A warning to all: Car driving bureaucrats worldwide will try to legislate against ANY vehicle and these regulations are very popular with other schadenfreude car drivers. Look at Australia, compulsory cycle helmets and even cycle bells in Brisbane. Legislation to attack cycles pointlessly. As people switch to cycles to beat congestion and pollution many car users are clamoring for compulsory high-viz clothing and cycle registration, next will come compulsory insurance and licenses and making the riding of a bicycle anywhere other than a cycle lane illegal. Of course these will all be pointless in terms of safety because it's the cars that make the roads less safe and polluted and congested, however these rules would make cycling less popular and awkward merely so that car drivers can feel the 'playing field has been leveled'.

When you let car driving bureaucrats bully ebikes and cycles you open the door for the next attack on motorcycles. All you saying every ebike no matter the wattage should have registration and licenses are idiots.

Appears to be a few assumptions and inaccuracies.

Cycle helmets are a safety device much in the same way as seat belts are. I don't have my health statistics in front of me at the moment but I can tell you just casual observations that many Chinese die from significant head trauma as a direct consequence of failing to use either safety device (cycle/motorcycle helmet, seat belt), and before you boho my claims, I work in medicine and the health sector here in China and have done so directly for more than a decade (in China) and was overseas before that. Want to see preventable vehicle/road trauma come to the hospital I am consulting in!

As for registration of ebikes, absolutely should be the case in China at least that way everyone should have the requisite knowledge to be an equitable road user. Here in these parts there are many tens of thousands of migrant workers, and locals alike that buy and are buying ebikes, and then go about riding them without any regard for themselves or any other road user for that matter! C'mon down around breakfast or dinner time on any given day in the special economic and trade development zone and watch the chaos that unfolds. Complete disregard for any road rules, and some would say complete demonstration of a lack of common sense and ones own personal safety to boot.

As for regulating ebikes out of the equation, the opposite can and does occur. Case in point - in NZ (last year) I was surprised to see a escooter parked with regular license plate on the rear when I was last in the Hawkes Bay town of Napier. It'd been a few years since my last visit back 'home' and back in the day ebikes/escooters (weren't common anyway at that time) couldn't be used on any public roadway. So to see this one escooter adorned with a regular license plate was a positive. At the time I had thought at first it was a regular small 125cc scooter, but what really interested me was that is was of the 'typical' Chinese scooter design so common here, so I rode on over to the scoot to take a closer look (I was on my Burgman AN650). It was then that I realised that it was an electric scooter and not a petrol/gas powered one. Big surprise. Roll back 5 years or more, there was no ability to legally ride an escooter/bike on a public road in NZ and registration was not an option.

Back to China, absolutely it should be mandatory for licensing a ebike/escooter, license the rider of any and all vehicles used on public roadways or thoroughfares, and compulsory insurance to cover said road users liability towards themselves and others, and moreover the said road user needs to be held accountable for THEIR actions, no matter they are a pedestrian, a cyclist or something resembling an ass. Yes seems a little draconian to even suggest licensing cyclists, but there needs to be a serious and significant attitude adjustment, wherein one realises that for the average local, any assumed knowledge over common road rules and the like, commonly do not exist.

Right now in CHINA, the situation is a farce!

Here's why I'm not 100% sure if licensing is necessarily the solution to the problem (maybe it is, but bear with me...). I think the fundamental issue which everyone has raised is that of basic road etiquette and personal and third-party safety, and it is clear and apparent that licensing does not entirely solve this issue, judging by the number of examples of legally plated cars and motorcycles with fully licensed drivers placing themselves and others at risk with their errant driving (of course, none on MCM ;)).

At best, all licensing will do is reduce the likelihood of law transgressions by giving license holders something to lose via point deductions, which in turn, does not necessarily guarantee safer roads. At worst, what licensing could end up doing is creating a band of bold, reckless idiots who think they are free to swerve in and out of lanes, cut other motorists off etc. while believing (possibly incorrectly) they are legally immune from road accidents involving themselves and a more expensive vehicle i.e. creating moral hazards, not entirely impossible given the "rigorous" training at driving/riding schools. Furthermore, any attempts to do so will be greeted with consumer and industrial backlash, which will bring down any attempts to ratify such legislation.

The FUNDAMENTAL issue here is education. Educate people so they understand why wearing safety gear while riding is a necessity; educate them so they understand why it is better to wait at a red at traffic lights. One thing which the government has done incredibly well (at least here in Beijing) is 'nudging' people to take part in regular exercise by creating loads of 'playground gyms' - something which the UK is now looking to adopt, if not already. One idea might be to work with apparel manufacturers to make it 'cool' to wear a helmet or a motorcycle jacket. Or maybe to make it uncool to run a red. No idea how you're supposed to do the latter, short of installing hidden spikes under the ground which deploy if a car/bike/pedestrian runs a red.

Just a thought or two...

i cannot agree with you Bikerdoc. If an ebike that puts out as much power as a human can be forced to be registered and licensed then the next step is forcing bicycles to be too, and that would be fucking lame.

Branng is absolutely right, it's about education, how about some public service advertising? I think some of us are familiar with advertising campaigns like UK's 'think!' or Australia's 'Drink, Drive Bloody Idiot'. Easy to advertise on TV, internet, railway stations and other large public TV screens all over China.

Someone sent me this video. Apparently, it was done by a group who researched the reasonableness of motorcycles. The group is hoping it will become viral.



I wish the group luck, although I kinda doubt many "leaders" will be watching it ... or, if they somehow did, paying much attention to it.

It's China. To be harmonious everyone MUST love the country, MUST love the party and MUST aspire to be a kind of black car limo driving executive business-class golf playing lawyer type, or if you are not must pretend to be. White shirt check, belt hoisted to navel check, slip on shoes check, side parted hair check black Audi A6 check.

It's up to the Chinese motorcyclists and motorcycle industry to lobby the government, especially local government.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

It's China. To be harmonious everyone MUST love the country, MUST love the party and MUST aspire to be a kind of black car limo driving executive business-class golf playing lawyer type, or if you are not must pretend to be. White shirt check, belt hoisted to navel check, slip on shoes check, side parted hair check black Audi A6 check.

It's up to the Chinese motorcyclists and motorcycle industry to lobby the government, especially local government.

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Hi Buddy
According to your recent posts about "swimming pools", "Chinese computers" and other opinions you've posted in the TIC as well as in other threads, I think your time has come .....

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Motorcycles, said it 100 times 250cc and above same plates as a car or another color, same fines, same insurance, however same rights such as using a regular road, freeways etc. Motorcycles 250cc and below stay on yellow plates as now..

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This sounds very reasonable. I hate the fact I can't drive my new, modern motorcycle on all roads in the country, even though I am licensed and insured. Instead of being safe and comfortable on a modern highway, we have to battle it out on the potholed remnants of Chinese farm roads. That's unsafe for everyone involved, really.

The problem seems to me to be driving habits and education. I commute to work about 7km a day through the center of shanghai on a bicycle (fixed gear, even...) and I learned in about 5 minutes what sort of vehicles to avoid like the plague. Unfortunately, even that apparently blind woman with her flannel jacket on backwards, 4 year old sitting on the boards, chatting on her fake iPhone and holding a 20 kwai umbrella as she blithely floats through a busy intersection against the red at speed has to get somewhere.

Some people say that is the Chinese "driving style", but its not. its just a simple lack of experience and education. Shut down the ability for people to forge or buy driving licenses without taking the test and require them for everything that has a motor, period. Offer compulsory, but free driving schools that focus on defensive driving - not the points system. Most of all, enforce the law with real officers and real, on the spot punitive measures, not automated systems and avoidable fines.

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Originally Posted by themicah

Some people say that is the Chinese "driving style", but its not. its just a simple lack of experience and education. .

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Exactly right. How many people do you think die a year in China because a driver confuses the brake pedal with the gas pedal? 100? 1000? 10,000? more? That's surely a sign that there's something seriously wrong. Saying it's 'driving style' is just face saving self delusion.

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Originally Posted by chinabiker

According to your recent posts about "swimming pools", "Chinese computers" and other opinions you've posted in the TIC as well as in other threads, I think your time has come .....

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Meh, just venting. And yes I have nearly had enough of China, on some days.....

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

How many people do you think die a year in China because a driver confuses the brake pedal with the gas pedal?

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http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/790410.shtml

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Originally Posted by thedannywahl

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/790410.shtml

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That story is very tragic, very concerning and not very surprising.

The tragedy is that it's just what you'd expect to happen when people treat cars like another toy. Cars are no joke. A ton of steel and seriously powerful engines. They require training and responsible, considered approach to ownership. It sounds lame, but in my high school drivers ed course, they called it a privilege, not a right. My culture had the privilege of understanding them that way, and that is, IMO, what Chinese consumers ought to be aspiring to, not some bullshit fantasy of dodging black helicopters and Ken Block nonsense. Poor little girl, but damn, her parents both deserve a Darwin Award. In Egypt they laugh at the Saudis who plow off the Nuweiba ferry in their armored SUVs. They say they fell off camels into a Mercedes. Sad but true. There's more to owning a car than the commercials let on.

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Originally Posted by themicah

The tragedy is that it's just what you'd expect to happen when people treat cars like another toy.

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Come on, don't exaggerate... :rolleyes1:

Just found this: http://sinopathic.com/3-dead-6-injur...ature-content/

Maybe I am not up to speed with the new "web journalism" but after reading this I do not know if this actually happened, or if this was some kind of street art, or perhaps street art modeled on an actual accident. The pictures look genuine, particularly the final image that seems to show that one bike jumped the curb and ploughed into a standard. If these are real pictures of a real accident, this site Sinopathic has gone far, far beyond mere shamelessness and should rebrand themselves SinoPathetic. Or just shut down and go reflect on their own startling lack of humanity.

I'd welcome a story that just tells what happened.

euphonius

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Originally Posted by euphonius

Maybe I am not up to speed with the new "web journalism" but after reading this I do not know if this actually happened, or if this was some kind of street art, or perhaps street art modeled on an actually accident

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My thought as well, just better expressed ... it seems staged.

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It was at a recent installation set up al fresco by the side of a road in Chongqing in which local Chinese audiences were seen to be gripped with the daring themes posed by this work. Local residents that perchanced upon this impromptu performance were in awe of the gritty, realistic tone that evoked grand themes of mortality vs. immortality as it challenged the established orthodoxy of conservative perspectives as witnessed from the mindset of a group responsibility

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Performance, with a bad taste.
When you watch carefully, no blood anywhere and the Streetlight has no scratches

Apparently it's true, and genuine. Here's a Xinhua report. Look more closely. One boy's leg is twisted in a way that could not be staged. The bike clearly has taken a very hard blow, with the front wheel smashed up against the engine.

What makes it all look like performance art is that no one is pitching in to help. Everyone is a bystander. The concept of "first aid" gets trumped in China by "don't get involved or someone might blame you."

TIC. This is also sad.

No, it cannot be real. I am sure. The Xinhua uses the same photos. Imagine 5 sitting on a bike/scooter, the other carries 4. How fast are this idiots normally? 15 to 25 km/h. If you crash a bike into a poole, frontal, the bike falls to its right side,, stopped at once, not even the backwheel made a move to the right. (What it should have made because of physics and momentum), not even leaving the scene 1 m; how do they manage to fall down in a rowe spread over ~10m? Where is the second bike? They say on the road close by. How does the other passengers manage to lay in the same rowe? And not on the road?
Bullshit!!

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Originally Posted by SabineHartmann

...Bullshit!!

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I hope you are right.

But here's another report, in English from Sina, with pix of the other motorcycle. Yes, they all are using the same pictures, but no one else is talking about performance art.

Sorry to say it but Sinopathic is yet another example of a web site in extremely bad taste. The "al fresco"..."impromptu performance art" comments are possibly meant as grotesque criticism of the people who are seen taking photos of the accident instead of helping. I find it very frustrating when the internet takes examples of real people suffering and turns it into inane stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Nuhaus

Sorry to say it but Sinopathic is yet another example of a web site in extremely bad taste. The "al fresco"..."impromptu performance art" comments are possibly meant as grotesque criticism of the people who are seen taking photos of the accident instead of helping. I find it very frustrating when the internet takes examples of real people suffering and turns it into inane stupidity.

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Dear Nuhaus,

your analysis is spot on. The extremely unfortunate result is that some people actually think this accident was just performance, and did not actually happen, nor leave three young people dead.

euphonius

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Originally Posted by euphonius

here's another report, in English from Sina

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It is on the internet, so it is true, right?
Or ... it is in the Chinese news, so it is true, right?

I have unfortunately seen too many crashes, good and bad, and this one is not a crash.
Look at the position of the bikes, the non-related position of the "victims", the lack of blood, the lack of a victim wrapped around the pole, the lack of scrape-marks on the road, the position of the first ''victim' (or did he bail first?) the lack of damage on the red bike ....

Staged, perhaps according a previous "real" accident, staged nevertheless.

Sorry, i posted incorrect information and cannot find how to delete my post! only edit!

It reminds me of something. When I was sitting at different traffic police stations due to my new DL, they showed videos on big TV screens. I remember one telling the story how they rescued a grandma laying unter a concrete mixer truck, close to the back wheels. Helpers and ambulance people trying to crawl under the truck have been dirtier than old grandma.
I believe, this are some kind of education stories, like "der 7. Sinn" in Germany.
Accidents like this happens every day. I am sorry for the deaths and injured people. They behave so stupid and childish, as if some part of their brain is switched of and their life is like a movie: ...... no, not me, - and "if" I shake, laugh and nothing stays. Must be so, because The same, dead actor plays in the next movie again.