More specific? The number in the biggest fontsize with the Jialing logo in front of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoKai
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More specific? The number in the biggest fontsize with the Jialing logo in front of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoKai
** UPDATE **
Jialing (Chongqing) is "getting back to us." We've also had pretty good support from the Beijing Service Center, who has written an "official letter" on our behalf. I don't envy those guys at the Service Center - I have a funny feeling that CQ isn't really that helpful with them, either.
Motokai, thanks for organizing the data compilation - I'll fire mine off soon.
Eric, again ... thanks. You certainly deserve some ice cream from us.
Well, I am afraid it is not over till it is over ... but who knows?
I certainly should try to make the database as big as possibe.
I saw various other threads of riders (overseas) who have one or two, like the guy in Holland who has a single and a sidecar version.
You might browes half an hour the forum to search them, and approach those guys as well.
Good luck, on stand-by!
Eric
** Jialing (Chongqing) Update **
Jialing (CQ) senior people have responded to a joint submission from the Beijing Service Centre and myself. Jialing is aware of the "problem" and is actively working with Bosch, as well as other "potential causes", and has given a firm commitment to resolve the problem. It is aware that this is a problem across almost all bikes, and that the stalling problem surfaces most commonly in the 5K to 8K mileage range. It is also aware that the current "fix" (part replacement) will result in the problem having a recurrence in the next 5 -> 8K range.
Jialing (CQ) has instructed me to hand over the most serious stalling issue bike (which would currently be my "A") and it will use it as one of its test/research bikes.
Jialing (CQ) has told me that once a permanent solution is developed, it will make arrangements for all affected motorcycles to be repaired/upgraded.
Hence, at this point, it seems to me as though Jialing is indeed making a genuine effort - the coming weeks will be more informative. I will turn my "A" over to Jialing later this week.
Cheers.
Great progress indeed, LJH!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
I am wondering if the response from Jialing is a formal letter or not. If it is, is it allowed to be shared?
I am also wondering how we can get Eric involved in this Jialing effort, given the fact Jialing has been working on this issue for so long without much to show and some fresh new ideas from someone with extensive experience working on many big bores probably won't hurt.
Well, that is already one step further then expected, congratulations.
You must have a great wife who got so far with Jialing!
I just wonder if they not only acknowledged the problem, but gave you a hint on what they think is causing the problem?
Cause I guess if the workshop just receives your bike without proper instructions from Jialing, they might just start to change wheels and so, preying it will solve the matter ....
As to Milton's remark:
I guess the above is the most important.
If Jialing has a clear idea what the problem is, and how to solve it, it might go pretty straightforward.
I still believe strongly that it is fuel related, but I am by far an expert on the Jialing bikes, so let see what they will come up with.
As long as you keep me informed, I can act as a "background" think tank for Richard and you, and give you my view on the case.
As long as we force them to give straight answers (Like: What should the CO % be at idle), I guess we can kind of control.
Of course I don't mind to eat my ice-cream in the Jialing factory as well ...:rolleyes1:
Thanks LJH!
Was out riding with my duc friend (little 600 Monster) the other night and my JH was stalling at every other intersection - frustrating.
Also, was experiencing something new for my bike - the Idle Stall: While sitting at the intersection waiting for light to change it would just cut out (this was not a low idle stall, but a true "cut" of the ECU). Anyway, if CQ needs a 2nd bike to work on, let me know. While I'm hoping for a solution, I'd settle for the temp fix just to get another 5K of solid riding! It's a great bike.
You forgot to mention how smooth that great "little" Monster was running :naughty:Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoKai
Dear LJH,
Good news indeed. Makes me wonder whether someone at Jialing perhaps learned a little English and has been lurking in MCM. Actually, I hope that's the case, and that they indeed are motivated to burnish their reputation with their customers.
Like Milton, I too hope that they let a little fresh air in and share their findings with all of us.
I also still believe in the tooth fairy.
And I also like what Motokai said: (Apart from the stalling, and the fork dive) It's a really great bike!
If you have a problem with fork dive, you can experiment with some thicker fork oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
This will stiffen up the compression and rebound, and you will notice a less pronounced dive (but also a stiffer bike in general - good if you join us on the F-1 circuit....).
E.
And or more volume of fork oil..Quote:
Originally Posted by 998S
Not sure if anyone in BJ is still interested in buying a JH600, or they rather wait for the outcome of the whole stalling issue.
But there are a few 2nd-hand JH600's for sale here:
JH600 with Jing A-plates
JH600 with Hebei-plates
JH600B with Hebei-plates
The more I read this thread and the more I am happy I went for the YBR250, as I liked the JH very much.
I have no doubt your problem will be solved eventually, especially because the youku videos and MCM + other forums are source of bad publicity for Jialing. This thing is now very public and that's the only reason they are addressing it.
Good luck you all, hope all your problems will be solved soon!
Well you can always consider the JH600 for your next bike - we always welcome you to join us! :riding:
This thread has been very useful. Thanks to Milton for starting it, and LJH for pushing the issues and E. for support (for the love of motorcycles & ice cream).
With that said, let's be reminded of the many wonderful experiences all of us JH600 riders on MCM have had. While there's no Forum category for the JH600, I've pulled together some selected threads from different Topics related to the JH600 - Enjoy!!
Impressions
My New JH600
Buckin' Bronco -- breaking in my JH600 in rural Sichuan
JH600 impression
JH600 Impression (2)
The first JH600 in Nanjing?
Ride Reports
Zhejiang to Fujian - JH600 home ride
Shenyang - Mohe
Yunnan Ride 2010
Hubei, Sichuan and the Three Gorges of Yangtze River
Weekend Trip From Shanghai -- QianDaoHu
Rapeseed Blossom
Motokai's Inner Mongolia Ride 2011
Jialing riders visit the West of Beijing
National Day Ride 2010 (Anhui + SW Zhejiang)
JH600 - Wet and Muddy in Fujian
Slabbing to Moganshan (and back)
My first mountain run-JH600
JH600 Off-Road: West Suzhou Tank Grounds Run
Solo Ride to Shaoxing & Xitang (Mid-Autumn Festival 2010)
Mods
My New JH600
Shanghai Muffler Man -- modding my JH600
Jialing JH600 muffler & pipe upgrade
Other
Jialing JH600 sidecar uncovered
What The Hell Is That? (JH600 Experiences)
Jialing JH600 in Brazil
Jialing JH600 Parts/Prices
Thanks for this, Motokai. Perhaps we can persuade CrazyCarl to set up a new sub-forum specifically for Jialing in the Manufacturer's Info and Discussion forum, where all the various Jialing models can have their place in the MCM sun.
cheers!
Dear Eric,Quote:
Originally Posted by 998S
Thanks for this guidance. I've read and re-read Pfaelzer's discussion of the JH600 fork, its diveyness and his upgrade to progressive springs and different fork oils, but I find myself still intimidated by the whole thing. This should be a good winter project, since my forks have never been serviced. At this point I'm not even sure whether the diveyness that I'm currently experiencing is the way the bike is supposed to behave or if there is a problem (insufficient oil, wrong viscosity, bad spring(s), etc). I only have one other bike (my KLR650) with which to compare, and I can say the JH600 front end is much softer/mushier, and I don't like it at all.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am curious about how to proceed. How could I get an independent assessment of the current fork dive and whether it's normal or abnormal? What would be the next steps -- just tinker with different viscosities of fork oil, or go for progressive springs and then start tinkering with oil?
thanks for any and all guidance!
cheers
Well, as the fuel injection before, suspension can also be easily broken down in 2 main blocks (and let me forget some of the details):Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
1) The springs, on which you basically ride / float
2) The damping, which basically tries to control the spring movement
In real life, these of course are very closely related, and working together.
Simply said, the springs are basically supporting the weight of the bike, plus the weight of the rider, passenger, luggage etc.
Springs can come in gradients of stiffness; a stiffer spring will compress less under the same weight.
A good rule of thumb is that the spring should compress 1/4th under the load of the rider sitting on the bike (for a road bike).
This means if your fork movement is 120mm, your spring should compress some 30 mm if you sit on the bike without moving.
This will allow the spring to further compress (if you meet a bump), or retract (in case you meet a hole in the road).
To determine the stiffness of the springs, factories have to compromise.
European riders are heavier then Asian riders; is the set-up for only a rider, or also a passenger / luggage, etc.
I can presume the Jialing is set up with relative soft springs, for a lightweight Asian rider.
Logically that a heavy Caucasian might consider the spring too soft.
Too prevent a uncontrollable movement of the spring under changing loads (riding over humps and holes), damping is needed.
Compression damping to control the compression of the spring, and rebound damping for the outward movement.
This damping is mostly obtained by oil and orifice (small holes) inside the damper or forks.
The oil is pressed through these small holes, and logically that creates friction. This friction prevents dramatic movements of the springs.
Now, to adjust this friction (and adjust the speed at which the spring can compress or rebound), you can change the diameters of the holes.
This can be done by a rebuilt of the fork, and change the orifices. On modern, more expensive forks, this can be done externally, by adjusters.
However, if you don't want to rebuilt the forks, you can change the thickness of the oil.
Thicker oil is more difficult to pass the holes, more friction, more damping,
Thinner oil, easier, less damping, same story.
So in the Jialing case, where you have forks without any adjustment, you basically can only change the oil thickness.
Try a slightly thicker oil, and you will find out that your damping improves.
As said before, if that does not help, there are other small tricks to try to improve things.
Hope this helps a bit in understanding the magic of suspension.
E.
PS. Progressive springs are a kind of compromise, which works good on off road bikes with longer travel.
They bassically combine different stiffness in 1 spring.
So, for the first part of the compression, they feel relative soft (and comfortable), then they start to stiffen up if they compress more.
Because of this, they reduce the dive.
Dear Eric,
Thanks for that super informative and useful overview. Next step for me is to dive into the JH600 service manual and learn the procedure for extracting the existing oil and replacing it with something thicker. Having read Pfaelzer's recent (April 2011) assessments of his fork's performance, I'm very tempted to spring for a new set of progressive springs.
Not sure if you were aware, but Jialing does sell the JH600 in two flavors -- Asian version and European. Their literature indicates that this is mainly a difference in height, but now I'm wondering if they've tuned the front and rear suspension to accommodat the (presumed) differences in rider size and weight.
Thanks again, and I'll surely post on this when I undertake the process.
Cheers!
Sorry to not be contributing in a timely fashion - life has been rather busy these days.
In conversations with Jialing (CQ), it hinted that it thinks one of the problems (related to stalling) may be related to dirt/dust getting the various electrical connections and/or sensors.
While this appears somewhat sensible, on the face of it, it doesn't explain the hot headers (apparently related to a lean mixture), nor the clockwork-like initial stall (possibly related to the ECU resetting the mixture after X revolutions, as Eric noted).
Eric's diagnosis relating to a lean mixture appears the most sensible primary stalling cause.
I will be turning over the bike within a day or two, and probably have more info by the end of next week (around the 11th).
BTW, my earlier comment that my stalling problem appeared to be reduced by colder weather has been completely discounted by the current cold weather - my "A" is stalling more than ever now, in colder weather, perhaps at almost twice the frequency of what was in the video.
Cheers
I don't really like the way some of the electrical parts below the seat look on my bike, some things look a bit porous down there. Was kind of thinking of replacing some of the electrical parts this winter. I'm sure it looks worse on my bike than yours, but then again my bike runs great compared to yours at the moment. So why should I replace something that's not broken yet and works fine (I've been in China to long, as long as the thing runs there's no need for maintenance)!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
Barry, you want the sad truth? It is because they don't know, don't want to know, or not have the capacity to know ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
I can tell you that, as long they don't gave a solid reply, from which you get the impression that they understand the problem, and give logical solutions and alternatives, I should NOT even bother to bring the bike to them. All they will do is start changing the tire valve caps, and tell you it is the solution, sadly no kidding ....
Again, I might be wrong in the lean running accessment, but as long as no one can convince me of any other cause (and I have not read or seen anything coming close) I keep convinced that it at least contributes to the problem.
998S Do you think that Jialing might have an 'Asian' fork spring and a thicker 'export' fork spring?
This all depends, TIC so guy dealing with you may just have a well connected daddy, and no clue. Or you might get an engineer who worked on the original project knows what he is doing, is an open-minded problem solver who isn't an arrogant dick. Highly unlikely, but not impossible!Quote:
Originally Posted by 998S
Can't remember if anyone brought up the Laser aftermarket exhaust here, that LJH and others have installed on their JH600. Can this be a factor for the stalling issue, or at least contribute to it? I'm still running the original exhaust and so is LJH's JH600B as far as I know!
No. I don't think so, too much trouble in double parts.
I understand the only difference is the connection of the rear shock to the bracket.
I understood it has 2 options (holes), which will alter the ride height.
If the front fork length is different though, they went the professional way.
Eric
PS. Increasing the ride height on the back will rotate the whole bike forward.
This decreases the fork angle, resulting in a quicker turning / less stability.
In small amounts this can be desirable, do it too much and a severe head shake is waiting for you.
That's why they should use longer forks for the export versions as well.
I thought the KLR 650 had to soft a springs on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
If you don't know about setting up suspension I would take it to a dedicated suspension tuner if there is one in China.I find servicing and setting up suspension more complicated than rebuilding an engine(Getting all the settings hi speed, low speed, compression, rebound etc right for me is the hardest part)I have taken months to do this .
Now I just take the bike to a suspension guru(back in Australia) he watches me ride the bike and we go from there.He checks my suspension sag first.
Luckily or unluckily most Chinese motorcycle suspension is basic at best.
Start with the springs if you can find the suspension sag details for the JH600 that is a start.
Then you start with oil weights and volume or a revalve.
There are plenty of forum and websites on how to set up suspension out there.Far to complicated and in depth to add to here.
If you are riding with a lot of weight saddle bags etc I doubt that Jialing factored that in for the suspension set up for the bike.
As mentioned before, after market exhaust generally cause a leaner mixture, as they are more "open".
Increased back-fire is the result of that, mentioned by several of you.
We compensate for that by adding fuel to the map in certain areas, but you might need to take some fuel away in other parts of the map.
Professional after market suppliers often even supply a model specific ECU chip with a modified map on it, to compensate and increase power in stead of only 'feeling due to the increased noise'.
But for your problems: Milton's bike has a standard exhaust, has lots of stalling problems (both kinds), and read even a lower CO then Motokai's bike.
Not the main reason for the stalling IMO.
E.
Barry, interesting question about the Laser. I was wondering about this when Eric mentioned a gas mix sensor in the exhaust system. When I had Mister Muffler Man saw off my stock muffler, there was no sensor anywhere there. Motokai and I have Lasers, but Milton does not. Milton had epic stalling problems. I have not, though I am not immune. Motokai has had good patches and bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
In any case, I would not want Jialing to get in a lather about the Laser. The problem exists regardless of which muffler is used.
Perhaps we can add this information to the data we all supply to Motokai.
cheers!
Furthermore, I don't think any of you had stalling problems directly after installing the Laser.
How are the stalling issues if you compare the earlier JH600's vs the newer version? Euphonius' and mine are earlier version than Motokai's, Milton's and LJH's if I'm correct!
I know people are going on the 'bike is too lean tangent' which is highly logical and plausible. But shouldn't EFI systems be able to adjust for it? Also shouldn't a Bosch EFI system work as well if not better than the industry standard, and shouldn't it be easy to achieve with a 600 single, being a fairly simple and well known design?
This is only a theory, but maybe this could be an electronics issue and the spark is too weak? We all know Chinese shops don't adequately trickle charge new batteries overnight, we know that a company like Jialing might have mediocre wiring and that the ignition coil and leads might also be causing the problem. Just a theory to eliminate.
If I remember well, the CO sensor is mounted on the right side, halfway the tank, in a sleeve on the exhaust-header.Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
That is why it was not removed when they changed your silencer.
It still should work.
You are right that the sensor measures the CO in the exhaust gasses, then adjusts. This is however a slow process with a long delay, not taking place all the time (I will not bother you with open and closed loop modes though), and within limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
Besides, that only 'lifts' or 'lowers' the total fuel map.
The problem remains that the map itself is set very lean to pass the emmission approvals.
I am quite sure you have point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
I am sure most components are of limited quality, such as the decompression valve system, surely the electronics, and most likely other components.
A weak spark should specifically result into poor starting, and a rough idle.
You might have that problem, as I read that most of you run the bikes at rather high idle.
It is IMO not a reason for the 'cut-out' though.
Eric