petrol run or blue plate run ?

[euphonius]

One more word on this: I think of the plate and the bike as completely separate values. Hypothesizing on two worst-case eventualities (knock wood), if the bike is stolen I can get a replacement plate for nominal cost and put it on a new bike, or sell it; and if my bike is totaled, I can put the (mangled) plate on a new bike, or sell it. The value of the plate remains intact regardless of what happens to the bike. If I get sick of Shanghai and move to Zhongdian, I can sell the plate in Shanghai, then take my bike to Shangrila and get new plates there. In each scenario, the plate sells at the market rate -- currently in the north 40s.

Not trying to talk anyone into it or out of it. I'm just disputing the validity of the argument comparing 40K rmb or more to a couple hundred for a fake plate. It's apples and oranges, and there are actually compelling reasons to buy an apple if you can finance it. (Think Different! It Just Works!) No guarantees the policy won't change, but it's not the equivalent of pissing cash down the drain.

cheers

[jape]

This isn't aimed at anyone, just a general comment.

When it comes to my rants or raves, I get more commendations privately than bricks chucked at me. Most just ignore them! And I rarely intend such to be aimed at an individual without saying so clearly, I just respond to my feelings about the developing trend of posts.

There is a fine line between passing on information on this site, between stating what you do or want to do, and being seen to support or even to suggest illegal or fraudulent practise.

All opinions are those of individuals and respected (or not) as such, however the forum as a whole, (and we are all members and participants and thus responsible) can only survive if it is seen NOT to support illegality. Surely, with a bit of thought, anyone would understand that? It is far too valuable a resource to many around the world, to be risked for the sake of a bit of smart-arse boasting of how to get round a restriction In Shanghai. Most of us understand that there are always ways around prohibition in any country, anywhere.

There is in fact no problem with posting openly what you do, illegal or otherwise and no problem with posting very diverse opinions and all viewpoints being expressed. But someone has to at least express a caution, a warning or what may even seem to be censorship. Just occasionally and depending on the circumstances and in itself open to judgement by peers.

As I said, it is a fine line and my personal interpretation of that line may be in error. All very well foreigners 'playing the game' in China. I would do the same of course. But a lot of information can and should be passed on privately when and if you achieve trust with another member, not boasted about. OK? All understood and settled down now?

[CrazyCarl]

Back in the ol' Earthquake of aught eight, I done took the ol' WuLing microbus out with a jerry can. Mine was only 20l or something. I saw dudes pulling up to gas stations with what looked like 400l cans!

Get ye wunna deez as cans, drop a bunch and have petrol for half a year. Splits the costs ifn' ya havetuz but all that money for a piece of crap metal painted blue aint'z wurfit.

CC

[Steve_R]

As for the petrol situation, there was a post sometime ago that said the petrol ban for bikes was only within inner Shanghai -- the boundary being defined as the second ring road, or the S20.

To confirm whether this was true or not, I rode out a few km past that border on a major road. I attempted to get the bike filled, and it was a failure. They took a look at the (lack of) plates, asked for my registration, and politely apologized, saying they could not fill the bike because of a rule. I then asked if this rule extended beyond the outer ring road, and they said it is the same rule whether in downtown or the suburbs. I was told the traffic police made it up. Again they were nice and cordial about the whole thing, which took place in Chinese. No hard feelings felt, but also no fuel. I figured this was because I was still within Xuhui district -- considered primarily as a downtown district.

So I kept going further out, by now this was Minhang district, and easily got the fuel no problem.

The clue to whether or not the particular gas station enforces the rule has to do with a sign in Chinese near the pumps that says 'Forbidden to ...... fill gas' and two characters in the middle that I can't make out.

While the ring road is a guideline, I also think the distinction has more to do with downtown vs. suburban districts. In other words, you need to pick districts that are considered suburban ones, and you also need to be outside of the ring road. The following would work, based on this theory:

-- Minhang (outside the ring)
-- Songjiang
-- Qingpu
-- Baoshan
-- Jiading
-- Pudong or Nanhui (outside the ring)

Then again, I'll need to investigate more to see if those signs are present at the gas station or not, as that will test if the theory is really true. For the next attempt I'll try the 'TOTAL' gas station on Caobao Road near Qibao, first one as you go past the ring road. That's a 20 minute ride from my apartment in Xujiahui area -- not far.

As for getting the fake plates, it's an option worth trying to get the fuel downtown, but there's no real benefit in terms of the police letting you go if stopped. In fact, it is probably worse with the fake plates. Let's face it, to be on the safe side, you'll still be playing the same ol' cat and mouse game with fake plates, as if you had no plates.

The reason why the suburban districts are your best for fuel is because those districts are effectively the countryside where ordinary folk and farmers need the gas to make a living. Denying gas to them is not likely to happen. So make the most of it, go for a suburban run when your tank is 1/4 full, plan ahead, and you're fine.

[jape]

Great post mate, thanks. This sort of common-sense, on-the-ground exploration beats thousands of words of conjecture and ranting.

[Steve_R]

If the police are really dogged determined to get rid of the scooters and bikes, then a large scale crackdown is the next logical thing to do after the no-fuel policy has had considerable time to work its effect, and they can see that people are still getting fuel and driving their bikes around (through a myriad of creative methods already mentioned here).

Typically the date is Jan 1st when they do a major crackdown, so it's very possible they could be holding out until next year. Governments would do that -- don't underestimate the time they are willing to wait it out, and employ long term 'seige tactics' like we're seeing with the fuel ban. It's worth keeping in mind that Shanghai has launched these kind of crackdowns before. In early 2007 they did a major scooter purge after the initial ban on gas scooters was introduced the previous year and people had some time to adapt to it. It was quite a serious crackdown that must have cost a lot of resources. They had police on every intersection, and they hauled scooters away by the truckload to the impound lot. This happened daily. After awhile, the crackdown petered out and things are back to normal. Surprisingly, the EXPO didn't cause a new crackdown in early 2010 but maybe it was because police resources were focued on event security.

In any event, there's nothing stopping Shanghai from repeating a 'purge' on scooters like in the past, despite how it's a huge waste of resources and wouldn't last long. In my opinion, they should really go after the cars and tackle traffic congestion. Anyways, we'll see what happens, and just keep on riding.

[dewsnap]

Yeah, thanks for that.
I'm guessing this is the sign that you mentioned...
DSC00390.jpg

I live in the Xinzhuang area of Minhang (outside the ring) and all the petrol stations around here definitely wont give petrol to non-plated bikes.
A few friends have reported better luck in Songjiang though.

[dewsnap]

I also agree with your crackdown theory. Most of my Chinese friends have said that all illegal scooters in Shanghai will be off the road by the end of the year. Then they're gonna start clamping down on the LPG scooters.
It's all talk obviously but i've already sold mine.

[Steve_R]

Thanks a lot for that picture, this is exactly what I saw. Alright, so it's clear now that they enforce the ban on a district-to-district level, and not about the ring road. The signs says 'Minhang PSB' so it's the entire district that we can scratch off the list. If anyone's up for the groundwork, how about going to other districts and reporting back if the signs are there or not. Songjiang would certainly be a better bet as that district has a border with other provinces (and so does Qingpu and Jiading), meaning it's way out in the countryside.

[euphonius]

Strange, that sign that dewsnap posted reads 禁止助力车加油, which means "petrol sales to power assisted vehicles forbidden". Nothing about plates or no plates, nothing about motorcycles. And it uses this term 助力车 zhuliche which to my ear is imprecise -- literally "power-assisted vehicle". Any native Shanghainese speakers in our forum? The Mandarin word I know for scooter is 踏板车 tabanche, which means "foot platform vehicle", and I use this all the time in Mandarin.

Has there been a class of motorized scooters, perhaps originally petrol then later LPG, that fell into a gray area -- not quite fitting the definition of "motorcycle" and hence tolerated without plates? And now these are being squeezed off the streets through denial of petrol? I do see untold thousands of unplated petrol and LPG scoots blasting all over Shanghai, scooting past traffic cops and even checkpoints with impunity. Were these once legal, but now not?

Starting to feel like a semantic question. What's the precise definition of 助力车? TD_ref? Nostalgie?

I do have some cop friends I can ask....