JH600 stalling

[milton]

Thanks a million, Eric, for taking time looking at our bikes and trying to find a solution to the puzzle. The "enriching the mixture" prescription may just be the silver bullet we've been looking for. Hopefully we can find someone soon who has access to the Jialing diagnostic instruments and is capable of tuning the ECU system through the instruments. Such a diagnostic setup is not currently available in Shanghai, unfortunately.

Again, many thanks, Eric. The coffee was excellent and the highly functional workshop in your garage is the world's tidiest.

Cheers!

[chinabiker]

Hi guys. I am in - and from - Austria and so is the engine developer (AVL). Not sure how much they are involved in the whole system but to a certain extent they should have an idea about the functions and parameters in the ECU.
Eric, PM or e-mail me the questions you have, then I'll try to get someone on the phone on Monday.

[MotoKai]

Thanks again Eric

Let's see if LJH's boys in the Beijing shop can suss this out with their JH600 expertise and diagnostics software.

* And now with so many JH600s on the road here in SH (at least 7), there's NO EXCUSE for Jialing not to have a trained mechanic with the software here. Let's all push LZD for this when he's back from Africa.

** And nice to have met Nuhaus today. I think I sold him on a JH600-A for his next bike! Also, not to spoil any surprises - but look out for some descriptions/photos of his revamped new toy! (Sweet work Eric)

[998S]

Ok, sounds like the plan is getting shape:

- Chinabiker: I will pen something down tomorrow or Monday.

- Milton: I might want to ask your help for 1-2 hours in going through certain parts of the manual.
I know you are not technical, but you can read Chinese, and I will make something out of it as long as you keep talking.
An other coffee or stronger is included

- Motokai (Together with LJH?): pushing Jialing service centers if required.

If ok for you guys, pls. PM me your email address, so we can get around this forum.


And, to prevent misunderstanding, why do I do this while I don't even have a Jialing?

1. If I can solve this for you, you are all gone buy me an ice-cream, and I love ice creams...

2. My wife will buy you all an ice-cream if it prevents me to buy an other old motorbike, and spend weeks in the garage.
She rather sees me getting frustrated on someone's else bike, then on an other one of me.

E.

[milton]

Eric, just let me know when you need me to translate the manual. Although I am more proficient in traditional Chinese, but I am still OK with simplified Chinese. Between your technical expertise, the Google and Baidu, and the manual in Simplified Chinese, we can make sense out of it. Besides, your excellent coffee or something stronger sounds irresistible.

I believe you already have my email address.

Look forward to seeing you getting frustrated by my Jialing again soon. Cheers!

[Lao Jia Hou]

Wow, Eric, Milton. Motokai & Andy ... a thousand thank you's ... covered in fine, imported ice cream.

I will contact the Beijing service centre re the diagnostic equipment.

This is what I know - several weeks ago, their technician plugged my two-wheeled bike's ECU into a large, hand-held reader - a reader that appeared quite comprehensive. This was quite a fancy device, in its own Jialing carrying case, BUT it was quite different from what I have seen at USA Harley/Victory Dealers that are remapping ECU software for performance pipes/intakes, etc. The Jialing device's readout was entirely in Chinese (of course), but it did have a keypad for data entry. The techie moved through the menus looking for error codes, but found none - indicating that, despite the stalling, the Jialing "brain" thinks everything is tickety-boo! I'm guessing that this hand-held device has several functions and (fingers crossed) might actually be able to modify and reflash the ECU.

It may take a couple of days to get an answer from the Beijing Service Centre, but I'll chase it down.

Again, thanks for your guys' efforts!

[euphonius]

Dear Eric,

Greetings from California, and many, many thanks for your astute sleuthing. A regular gasoline gumshoe!

I'm particularly impressed with your theory about our "like clockwork" stalls at about 30 seconds, and the notion that this represents maybe 500 or 1000 spins. This is the brave new world of computer-controlled internal combustion. Wow

As for Chinabiker's idea about AVL, this is really an excellent way to move forward. But be forewarned: I made what I thought was a very friendly and non-threatening approach to AVL's technical center in Shanghai, where the JH600 powerplant presumably was developed. They were cold and singularly unfriendly. When I finally reached a manager, he refused even to listen to my general questions about Jialing development, much less specific questions about the engine. His final word: "All information about any cooperation with Jialing is subject to confidentiality agreements. I cannot discuss anything with a member of the public."

Perhaps a smooth Chinabiker approach in Austria could help persuade Jialing that this is either 1) a golden opportunity to assist and work with some of their most dedicated customers or 2) a public relations disaster in the making. It certainly can be either.

Finally, another word of thanks to Eric, Milton, Craigokai and other members of the Shanghai axis for this great and generous act of coordinated combustion sleuthing! No more anti-Shanghai slurs, please!

cheers!

[998S]

Well, I guess I agree with you, my experience in China makes me indeed afraid that nothing much will come out of it.
Most likely somewhere down the line we are going to hit the concrete barrier, but who knows?
Everything we learn till that moment might contribute to the solution.

Frankly speaking I think that at the end it will be us who are pushing the buttons on the mobile device.
That it is a mobile device make things easier though, your damn bikes are really heavy to ship ....

For those of you who are interested, I chalked up a simple diagram of the fuel system on your bikes.
It is not complete, but it gives the idea of what we are chasing.



You can simply break it down to 3 main streams:
1. The fuel supply on the left, which is just supplying the filtered fuel at a constant pressure to the fuel injector,
2. The Air supply on the right, which does the same for clean air,
3. The control in the middle, consisting of the ECU, with input form the sensors, and output to the injector.

"Inside" this ECU is a fuel map, which is basically nothing else then a value of how much the injector sprays for each position of the throttle, at each RPM.
It can be easily visualized by a spreadsheet, or by a 3-D diagram.





The problem on your bikes is most likely in the left lower area (no throttle, low RPM).
Solution should be to increase the fuel-values in that area a bit, to let the injector spray more fuel.
Simple, and ice-cream earned ...

However, there is one catch.
Your bikes are of the newer type fuel controls, where there is a sensor (AFV) mounted in the exhaust, and measuring the quality of the exhaust gasses.
It kind of "overrules" the fuel map by adding or taking off fuel of the whole map to compensate a "bad" mixture.
I need to find a bit more info on this matter.

Ok, I will handle the technical discussion by email and not on this forum, but give an update once there is something new to announce.

E.

[andre555]

...
Ok, I will handle the technical discussion by email and not on this forum, but give an update once there is something new to announce.

E.

Keep it coming - its great & educational, you have a gift to explain this "complex" tech stuff in a way it’s understandable!

Actually the reported stalling was a reason I never considered that bike, I expected even bigger problems at the Yunnan
altitude and sticked to a carbed China bike for that reason.

Please don’t move into private emails. Thanks.

[Lao Jia Hou]

Frankly speaking I think that at the end it will be us who are pushing the buttons on the mobile device.

I agree with you, but that is probably a good thing. The more we know about these bikes, and how they are put together (warts and all), the better. It is great having your technical expertise/experience on board.

Actually the reported stalling was a reason I never considered that bike, I expected even bigger problems at the Yunnan altitude and sticked to a carbed China bike for that reason.

That is one of the benefits of forums like this - actual users sharing real-life experiences. Forget about the glossy brochures and hot girls at the bike shows.

"Had I known then what I know know ..." Alas, life is full of these things. We've all had experiences of purchasing something that didn't work out quite the way it was "advertised" ... cars, dishwashers, mobile phones ... heck, I even have an ex-girlfriend (or two, or more), where I shook my head thereafter and mumbled ... "had I known then what I know now ..."

From what I've been seeing, bikes are all heading to EFI, so an understanding of its workings (or lack thereof) benefits all of us.

I'm confident that the 2012 riding season will be stall-free!