CFMoto & KTM

[bigdamo]

Yeah right KTM is going to have some form of collaboration with a Chinese motorcycle manufacturer.

[bikerdoc]

Spoke with my CFMoto contact, seems indeed likely that KTM and CFMoto are involved in a ADV style bike together or at least are developing a strategic partnership of some kind.

I can't make that much sense of the discussion though as the contact said that the bike is going to be pretty expensive circa 200K. It was suggested that the bike will be primarily a KTM and lesser of the CFMoto element. Perhaps (this is my supposition) most of the running gear will be KTM and a few of the more simple components will be sourced from CFMoto, perhaps the rolling stock arrives in PRC to CFMoto from the KTM factory and then put together with the rest of the bolt-ons at CFMoto in HZ. So there is co-operation and likely licensing between CFMoto and KTM including that it's possible to order a KTM through CFMoto. Now I don't knoiw if that means a wholly 100% KTM or some sort of pre-order CFMoto-KTM ADV bike, so don't farkin shoot me down on that!

No idea where this leaves the 650 twin cylinder in all of this - likely too early to tell.

The official CFMoto announcement has not been released in this regard so that's all that I can get at the moment.

More info here

[ZMC888]

Spoke with my CFMoto contact, seems indeed likely that KTM and CFMoto are involved in a ADV style bike together.

I can't make that much sense of the discussion though as the contact said that the bike is going to be pretty expensive circa 200K. It was suggested that the bike will be primarily a KTM and lesser of the CFMoto element. Perhaps (this is my supposition) most of the running gear will be KTM and a few of the more simple components will be sourced from CFMoto, perhaps the rolling stock arrives in PRC to CFMoto from the KTM factory and then put together with the rest of the bolt-ons at CFMoto in HZ. So there is co-operation and likely licensing between CFMoto and KTM including that it's possible to order a KTM through CFMoto. Now I don't knoiw if that means a wholly 100% KTM or some sort of pre-order CFMoto-KTM ADV bike, so don't farkin shoot me down on that!

No idea where this leaves the 650 twin cylinder in all of this - likely too early to tell.

The official CFMoto announcement has not been released in this regard so that's all that I can get at the moment.

More info here

I hope it works out OK. I just worry because most consumers, western or Chinese just don't want any Chinese involvement in high end expensive goods. Certainly there is much more risk for KTM than CFMOTO.

There are lots of similar examples with motorcycle and mountain bike production. When SR Suntour (cheap Taiwanese and China MTB fork maker) started producing forks for Marzocchi in around 2008 it caused lots of warranty issues and customer complaints. It worked really well for Suntour and they now produce much better forks these days.
Loncin BMW, loads of other examples too.

[bigdamo]

I hope it works out OK. I just worry because most consumers, western or Chinese just don't want any Chinese involvement in high end expensive goods. Certainly there is much more risk for KTM than CFMOTO.

There are lots of similar examples with motorcycle and mountain bike production. When SR Suntour (cheap Taiwanese and China MTB fork maker) started producing forks for Marzocchi in around 2008 it caused lots of warranty issues and customer complaints. It worked really well for Suntour and they now produce much better forks these days.
Loncin BMW, loads of other examples too.

Your right Husqvarna ditched Marzocchi in favor of KYB after Marzocchi switched manufacturing to China.Marzocchi has lost serious cred with all the issues after switching manufacturing to China.The head of KTM bought Husqvarna off BMW and is trying to fix the problems.Bikedoc you don't think KTM have an inkling of how bad Chinese motorcyle companies are ?

[bikerdoc]

Your right Husqvarna ditched Marzocchi in favor of KYB after Marzocchi switched manufacturing to China.Marzocchi has lost serious cred with all the issues after switching manufacturing to China.The head of KTM bought Husqvarna off BMW and is trying to fix the problems.Bikedoc you don't think KTM have an inkling of how bad Chinese motorcyle companies are ?

I agree totally on this, and if you search for some of my posts you will find I have my views on PRC products, even those that can be made by JV's here. I'm sure KTM know only too well about the issues over QC, never mind, ethics, honesty and integrity when dealing with PRC companies.
But Bigdamo, they wouldn't be the first company to be feed a whole bunch of bull faeces and lead down the garden path and fall for it hook line and sinker. Many companies and individuals, some of them very smart, have still sacrificed too much and lost even after all the due diligence.

Still even with all the negatives, there are plenty of vulnerable's getting of planes in PRC everyday.

[MJH]

I think that CFMOTO with its 150cc put a water cooled head on the GS150R Suzuki engine, the bore and stoke are the same and both have a six speed gearbox, they also look similar in layout.

The CFMOTO 150 is rated at:
149.4 @10.5kw

10.5kw/149.4= .07 kw per liter, that’s 14.25hp
If it was a 125cc then it would offer around 12hp.
If it was a 175cc then it would offer about 16.5hp.
If they can manage to keep the same hp to liter ratio.

The fact that they are not further developing that engine seems foolish to me.
They could be taking allot of L class in the UK with it and in that building a following of new riders while simultaneously building distribution partners.

They could have a value entry level bike in the USA with a 175cc version, if they can keep the power consistent in that engine. Theoretically it even could be a 199cc and offer close to 20hp.

They need to consider building into the market at the line of market entry and that’s new riders. In that they work on systems and that’s about training on the systems and products, it is all about a distributed system that is linked in to the factory and supply. Its about technology and in that information systems.

You should not need to speak to anyone when you need a spare part, but you also should be able to painlessly make a warranty claim and get regular servicing with confidence.

Its always or often about people thinking they can operate out of an autonomous bubble. They lack flows and snap shots, they do not have way to measure how well they are doing.

Why did they drop their scooter line? In that they started partnerships in the market and then abruptly cut them all off.

They have partners that are buying their 600cc twins and those partners are buying other smaller displacement bikes and scooters from other suppliers. They see the importance of having the 150 in China but cannot see the importance of also covering more of the market in other markets.

They have to understand and address multiple levels of the market and in that they can systematically build brand recognition, some levels of the market are dynamically changing, that represents people. In that many progress, they move up and in that they base the next choice on experiences….if they had very good luck they are reluctant to change. Not that many take risks, some do but most go for the known positive experience so in that they build up and in that they have to insure the best they can from the bottom up.

Seems that all it takes is one loud negative perception and its like a house of cards falling. Try not to destroy them under the context of constructive criticism “Tough Love” after all they are one of the few actually rushing to give you what you want, probably before they are truly ready to do it and to that of what is a recognized international standard.

[ZMC888]

MJH, what you are talking about is purely management related. Companies are run despotically, power is clung to good advice and bad advice is equally dismissed. CEOs want to be experts, but they aren't and kill their own businesses. All you have to do is ask customers what they want, but no, that's too easy, the CEO can guess what they want, when they get it wrong the whole thing collapses. I'd suspect most motorcycle related successes are due to importers or riders telling Chinese companies what to make early on, when the Chinese were so clueless they had to ask. Later on 'they think they know' and must take control or lose 'face', of course they don't and this is where the problems start. Main reason why the JV's work much better. When the bigger more experienced companies call the shots things work much better.

I doubt a KTM/CFMOTO JV would work out. KTM will want to use CFMOTO the same way Suzuki use Haojue, and provide the Chinese market with KTM at a cheaper price point, and then export KTM for cheaper price points to the west to compete with Japanese bike export prices from Made in Thailand bikes. However by now CFMOTO management probably think their own farts smell good and will want to make decisions and have equal input or even call the shots, which obviously would be a disaster. I doubt Chinese management can tolerate the thought that KTM are masters and they are the noobs. I hope I'm wrong and actually CFMOTO do have a mature enough culture, time will tell.

[MJH]

MJH, what you are talking about is purely management related. Companies are run despotically, power is clung to good advice and bad advice is equally dismissed. CEOs want to be experts, but they aren't and kill their own businesses. All you have to do is ask customers what they want, but no, that's too easy, the CEO can guess what they want, when they get it wrong the whole thing collapses. I'd suspect most motorcycle related successes are due to importers or riders telling Chinese companies what to make early on, when the Chinese were so clueless they had to ask. Later on 'they think they know' and must take control or lose 'face', of course they don't and this is where the problems start. Main reason why the JV's work much better. When the bigger more experienced companies call the shots things work much better.

I doubt a KTM/CFMOTO JV would work out. KTM will want to use CFMOTO the same way Suzuki use Haojue, and provide the Chinese market with KTM at a cheaper price point, and then export KTM for cheaper price points to the west to compete with Japanese bike export prices from Made in Thailand bikes. However by now CFMOTO management probably think their own farts smell good and will want to make decisions and have equal input or even call the shots, which obviously would be a disaster. I doubt Chinese management can tolerate the thought that KTM are masters and they are the noobs. I hope I'm wrong and actually CFMOTO do have a mature enough culture, time will tell.

Its not the same relationship as that of Haojue and Suzuki, were Haojue actually got to develop a totally new model. What is obvious is that there are no copies of the GW250 not a one. That means the partnership is solid and appreciated mutually. If anyone comes to the table of negotiating wondering how can I fuck you then the other will strive to fuck them back and the technology will go out the back door.

[bikerdoc]

The new CFMoto KTM Duke 200 and 390 models are selling like crazy and this from the mouth of Marius Schiller, Area Sales & marketing Manager ABUS mobile security devision whom I met and was speaking with yesterday. By his account the Hanghzou KTMR2R shop (there are several) cannot keep up with the demand on the Duke390. Over 100 sold in the Hangzhou stores.

ABUS manufacture various types of locks for different applications including motorcycle locks in ABUS German factory e.g disc locks and more, and are partnered with CFMoto to offer locks wholesale to the KTMR2R stores. ABUS also make bicycle locks and door locks, the latter of these are also manufactured in ABUS JV factories in Shenzhen. The motorcycle locks are not made in PRC though, only made in the German factory.

KTMR2R NB 01.jpg

KTMR2R NB 03.jpg KTMR2R NB 04.jpg

KTMR2R NB 05.jpg

Duke 390 MSRP 49800kuai plus tax and plating...

CFMoto welcomes KTM VIPs
Note in the link that the 650MT or 650AK adveturer tourer is mentioned under the photo of the 650TR/TK bottom right corner "CFMOTO 650 TK, currently the most modern China bike. The next 650 Adventure Tourer was designed by Gerald Kiska"

CFMoto_Werk_Rezeption_kl.jpg

[bikerdoc]

KTM announce China partnership press release at 12th CIMC Expo in Chongqing and launch of new logo....

Oh.... and who is the new partner? CFMOTO!

CFMOTO & KTM

or

KTM & CFMOTO