JH600 stalling

[euphonius]

Dear MJH,

Trying to PM you, but MCM system says your account is not accepting PMs. Can you PM or email me?

thanks!

[MJH]

Jialing needs to offer you a 2011 model and it better not have flaming manifolds and stalling or they can or should consider leaving the industry.

If Jialing wants to build a respectable brand name, they need to “do the right thing” it is a matter of paying now or paying later.

The cost of research and development includes testing and in that real and actual resolutions implemented before the product enters the market. If not then the cost saved by cheating or short testing come back after the product is sold, the consumer is testing were Jialing did not and the results are bad.

Using the consumers as test bikes is bad business practices. That is the reputation you can today associate with Jialing.

"Doing the right thing" is investing in good faith and it pays back in folds, if not it damages in folds and that will drag Jialing down.

Put the People in the Peoples Republic first! else they will put you last!

[Barry]

If Jialing wants to build a respectable brand name, they need to “do the right thing” it is a matter of paying now or paying later.

Not willing to financially take care of bikes with stalling issues now, might result in bad publicity and disappointing sales in Brazil (paying later). But in this case I doubt they realise that the disappointing sales were caused by their way of handling issues in the domestic market!

[euphonius]

Not willing to financially take care of bikes with stalling issues now, might result in bad publicity and disappointing sales in Brazil (paying later). But in this case I doubt they realise that the disappointing sales were caused by their way of handling issues in the domestic market!

Yes, the objective would be to let them understand the link between the two.

[MJH]

I would say Jialing is paying attention, and should offer retrofits to the bikes. That would or should be done through authorized servicing centers, then those established authorized centers would likely also sell the bikes if they see them as stable and reliable.

If Jailing is to manage these bike in the market (well) that could actually theoretically double the current domestic sales. That because the service centers that see them taking responsibility will become promoters of the bikes. People value the opinions of mechanics, that being when a mechanic tells them it is good and also well supported it make people feel confident to buy the motorcycle.

Then also the opinion of the owner matters, when people ask , “how do you like it” or “where did you buy it” and also “where do you get it serviced” it all leads back to the service center and then sales happen.

It is important that the service centers have technicians trained on the EFI and have the tools needed to diagnose any problems. Each problem addressed with the factory then resolved through engineering.
Eventually the motorcycle has no problems and sales increase and the technician become more knowledgeable on the model.

“Doing the right thing” comes with rewards.

[ZMC888]

MJH, Jialing probably won't do the right thing. This is because they are a government owned company. They know that Chinese people aren't really able to complain about them, which means they think they can do whatever they like. They also think doing whatever they like comes with their job, because they used family connections bought their way into this company to get in a government job where they do very little, paid well and get lots of freebies like an apartment, early retirement, health and pension. The power structure also exists in dictatorial system where if you disagree with the ideas of the leadership, this is because you are to stupid to possibly understand their 'genius' work methods and strategy. The people who get to the top are not the best people at running a company just those who are better at playing the game of climb the greasy pole. If you work for Jialing and you really love motorcycles it would probably be even more frustrating than being their customer.

[MJH]

What would be the best markets in china for Jialing to set up sales and support centers, it seems like a potential patchwork with consideration to all the areas that banned motorcycles.

It will be interesting to see how well Suzuki support the GW250 in china.

Based on how few of the JH600 are actually being sold in china,Jialing has lots of opportunity to expand those JH600 sales, but they have to address technical support in the field, all manufactures offer technical training. It stems from or out of engineering and is managed through operations.

Its the operations manager that brings it all together, an operations manager answers directly to a chief executive. So that is only one person to have to play golf with, should not be all that challenging. That executive has to choose a genius and give the genius free reign, better yet a big fat budget to work with and authority over all subordinate positions.

[bikerdoc]

What would be the best markets in china for Jialing to set up sales and support centers, it seems like a potential patchwork with consideration to all the areas that banned motorcycles.

It will be interesting to see how well Suzuki support the GW250 in china.

Based on how few of the JH600 are actually being sold in china,Jialing has lots of opportunity to expand those JH600 sales, but they have to address technical support in the field, all manufactures offer technical training. It stems from or out of engineering and is managed through operations.

Its the operations manager that brings it all together, an operations manager answers directly to a chief executive. So that is only one person to have to play golf with, should not be all that challenging. That executive has to choose a genius and give the genius free reign, better yet a big fat budget to work with and authority over all subordinate positions.

I agree MJH, and your last several posts on this topic have been spot on, but... you'd need to have the entire company attend an MBA for them to appreciate the relevance of any of it, and that is where the whole concept falls apart. It ain't likely to happen.

All great conjecture in theory, but none of it is likely to happen any time soon. Basically what you describe is a foreign concept, lost on the local majority what with their kow-tow, gumbei and cultural overtones. For the local majority Jialing have a mammoth task to overcome which is a prejudice for most things that are locally produced (and for very good reason based on my decade of experience in China). Not a small undertaking, to convince a highly suspicious market that the Jialing brand is associated with highly desirable and quality attributes... an undertaking that wouldn't seem to be in Jialings' best interest from THEIR perspective being a state owned/financed enterprise (you will need to put on cultural glasses to get the whole view from their side). Hypothesis all you want, isn't likely to make it happen. Rather than pasting a wish list and a 'how to win, influence and retain customers' on this website, you'd likely get slightly better results from finding out who is the GM/CEO/Technical slash Development managers and craft a well worded culturally appropriate letter and sending it to those concerned at Jialing. After all it may very well be, that the people that matter and need to be influenced are completely unaware of the ongoing JH600 stalling saga. Besides which there is slight to little or no chance of them reading anything here.

This is the very reason I took the time, and visited CFMoto about my Jetmax concerns though I didn't get to meet the right people or persons at CFMoto, I now know where the company is located and have some insight into the operation and company culture. I also was able to walk away from that visit with a list of contacts, as well as some part replacements, and more.

As an aside, though still on topic... there is a very clever motorcycle mechanic based down here (Zhenhai) who has diagnosed little things on my and a friends Jetmax - e.g. failed sensor notifications (ECU) attributed to faulty sensor themselves or in one case shorted wiring. He has the required skills, knowledge and well rounded logic that appears lost on many other so called mechanics in China I have used and seen in operation in the past. If one of you SH based lot want I could attempt to check if your folks stalling JH600's is something he might consider working on to try and understand what is the route cause. Quick question though, when you lot with these stalling JH600's have been into authorised repair centres (and I use the term loosely - we are in China after all), have they been plugging in a ECU diagnostic device into the ECU?

I cannot help but recall a local Chinese friend (an avid photographer and a Chinese university professor) who has (and has been trying to sell) a JH600 first edition model, that he had some problems with, including a complete front end rebuild under warranty. When I mentioned to him that I was considering a JH600 purchase 1-2 years ago, he asked why, how much, what for... when I told him the price at the time, which was around CNY35000, he laughed in a very Chinese way and said the JH600 wasn't worth anything more than CNY7000 and that I should not buy one. I listened carefully and weighed up the bias likely in his advice (however he had a JH600 and I hadn't) and I have learnt that sometimes the locals are right (not often, not always - but sometimes). The majority of local Chinese think that anything foreign has got to be ten times better than anything made locally, and I tend to agree. It MAY NOT always be the case, but it would certainly be so in the majority. Given that there is an increasing awakening, increasing wealth, increasing sense of self importance, increasing demand, increasing GDP and increasing squeezing of profit margins, increasing numbers of factories closing... shortcuts, cost cutting - call it what you will... there's an inevitable consequence of buying/doing business in China. Look beneath the wrapping, for nothing is at seems in PRC. To get rich is glorious! (he who reaches his first bucket of gold has achieved success no matter how one got it).

Just my ten cents worth... anyway for some light comic festive relief... please enjoy <- click for light hearted entertainment

[998S]

Not wane get involved in the commercial part of this case, just some technical aspects I want to let you know.

I did some more checking on Milton's bike the last days.
He is on holiday right now, and kindly left the bike with me for some further fiddling.
As you all know, we went from a very frequent stalling bike (in September) to a stall free / almost stall-free bike under the right conditions.

However, due to the limitations I have on overriding the system,
I can only adjust the fuel injected by rough steps.
Still I tried to fine-tune this in the last days, and some longer test riding did not bring any stalls yesterday.

However, as the weather gets colder again, I suspect some stalling might return.
I am however not able to add enough fuel for these colder conditions, without upsetting the running of the engine in other area's.

To conclude the technical investigation, and leave it further up to you guys, herewith the final conclusions:
1. There is surely a ''hard spot'' in the ECU mapping, which is most clear by the idle stall,
2. This "hard spot" also creates the stall at "stopping", as mentioned before,
3. If the mixture is too lean, this causes the stalling, as the engine does not have enough momentum to keep running,
4. A richer mixture helps the engine to overcome the hard spot, or eliminate it,
5. Some of the external sensors are not fully calibrated to compensate for the changes they are measuring (like the outside air sensor should signal the ECU to enrich if the temperature drops, but it seems the mixture is not enriched enough below 5C degree). This is a pure mapping issue.
6. I still don't believe that disconnecting the camshaft sensor should have influence on the issue.

From above technical considerations, I can only advise you to push for a upgrade to version 3.0.
Not because this should be better, but as it will allow you to make necessary changes in the mapping, which can't be done in the version 2.0.
If you are not able to obtain this version 3.0, tweaking the present system carefully, can still improve your bike dramatically (as proven on Milton's bike).
It will prevent most of your stalling under normal riding conditions, I am pretty sure about that.

I made my case, good luck with it!
Eric

[euphonius]

...As an aside, though still on topic... there is a very clever motorcycle mechanic based down here (Zhenhai) who has diagnosed little things on my and a friends Jetmax - e.g. failed sensor notifications (ECU) attributed to faulty sensor themselves or in one case shorted wiring. He has the required skills, knowledge and well rounded logic that appears lost on many other so called mechanics in China I have used and seen in operation in the past. If one of you SH based lot want I could attempt to check if your folks stalling JH600's is something he might consider working on to try and understand what is the route cause. Quick question though, when you lot with these stalling JH600's have been into authorised repair centres (and I use the term loosely - we are in China after all), have they been plugging in a ECU diagnostic device into the ECU?
...

Dear Bikerdoc,

This is precisely the gist of our gripe: That Jialing has not accepted that in selling a relatively advanced EFI bike they MUST establish competent service centers to keep their customers happy and safe and riding. The "authorized service center" in Shanghai is a crappy Changjiang 750 repair shop -- your typical rat's nest of old parts chaos with a couple of guys squatting in the grease doing half-assed repairs, which is mostly guesswork when it comes to EFI. No, of course they don't have an ECU diagnostic device; this is precisely what we are demanding that Jialing provide to its service centers. But up to now, for those who are still under warranty, Jialing will only deign to swap out this part or that, or disconnect the cam position sensor, and wash their hands of us.

Hence MJH's thoughtful and instructive ideas on what Jialing could and should do to develop a genuine home market.

I do read the Chinese forums, and while there is some skepticism among Chinese motorcyclists about domestic brands -- and a lot of unjustified foreign brand worship -- there are plenty of intelligent riders who covet the JH600 and would love to buy one -- if they felt they would get decent after-sales support. Jialing needs to bite the bullet and do this.

Out in southwestern China, there actually are Jialing authorized service centers -- lots of them -- but these focus almost exclusively on their smaller bikes. You'll never see a JH600 in one of these shops, and when I've dropped in for an oil change or other service, the guys often say this is the first JH600 they've seen.

Jialing went to the trouble to develop a very nice bike, but perhaps they never thought for a second about selling it inside China; it's purely an export play for the likes of Traxx (which Jialing owns). The Brazilian forums do contain many mentions of Traxx being Jialing's springboard into the US market, which tells you just how far Jialing's thinking is from the "home market".

If only Jialing would have a look at the Harley shops springing up all over China, and smell the coffee. There is a big market in China for well-engineered, well-supported big recreational bikes here. But it takes some work and investment. With a proper strategy like that outlined by MJH, Jialing could flourish in China, learn what makes recreational and adventure bike riders tick, and do so with a huge home-court advantage that would radically improve their odds of success in Brazil or America or anywhere else.

cheers