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Twenty motorbike riders today where taken to hospital in my reasonable sized city and that is only up until 4.00pm the day is still young.I am told this is about average.
Will they beat a couple of months ago when forty motorcycle riders where taken to hospital in one day that includes five from the local motorcycle club.
China is very densely populated instances of everything will be higher, that is what comes with high density populations.
What is a reasonable size of a city in china?
The city your in Shihiza is 680,000 and if the accidents are in your city then 0.003% of the population was involved in a motorcycle accident in one day.
Other things have to be considered, like what percentage of the population rides?
I once heard that in Japan when a person hits a motorcycle and then claims that they did not see them they are automatically put at fault.
Your in an area of china that is less populated….the capital of Xinjiang is reasonably sized at 2,74,280, the city you reside in at 680,000 is reasonably sized as for the rest of the Chinese Eastern Coast its populations are very high…and incidents of accidents would also be high do to that.
It would be very interesting to see some per capita (or per rider) stats, but I doubt they are published.
I really have no idea, aside from my own experience in China. I have passed by several MC accidents. It has appeared to me to be much more common in China than in other countries I am familiar with. Elsewhere, in my experience, it would be rare to happen across a MC accident.
I wonder what Vietnam is like? Or India?
If Sydney,Australia which has a population of around 4 million had an average of 20 motorcycle accidents a day there would be an outcry of change.There is an extremely large population of motorcycle riders in Sydney.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
Those 20 motorcycle stats a day are from one hospital we have two hospitals here.
Not a day goes by when I do not see at least one automotive accident here.
I have seen 3 motorcycle accidents in a 10 days.I don't count those electric bikes.
I doubt that 680,000 people are riding motorcycles .
I have seen population stats from 550,000 to 640,000 but who's counting.Alot of people have bought units here but still reside in Urumqi for certain reasons.I'm betting they put there residence as Shihezi but don't live here for certain reasons.
Are they still legally riding motorcycles in China's eastern coast cities?
Maybe people here who live in China can take a tally on how many motorcycle accidents they see in there city in a week/month ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
This is the kind of propaganda Chinese car drivers love, and examples can very easily be found with such a large population. A young Chinese boy only 16 dies in motorcycle accident, how terrible it is, how upset the family are. The family down the road who lost their son in a car crash isn't mentioned as banning cars what is trying to be achieved with the propaganda here. Motorcycles are dangerous, they simply must be banned....until you delve further....Boy had no training, experience or protective clothing. Was riding an illegal motorcycle stolen from Hong Kong which had been rebuilt incorrectly and had been dropped and had a bent frame. Also to save money the bike had incorrect sized cheap rear tire and a very worn to slick front tire, and the motorcycle was being ridden in the rain...
With adequate training and experience motorcycling can be very safe, of course this training is very hard to come by in China. Most good Chinese riders I have met have an aware mental state and a history of riding motocross.
ZMC888 is spot on. This is nonsense on multiple levels. I'd bet that in bigdamo's town, and most any other city in China, there are more people brought into hospitals for treatment of injuries sustained in car "accidents" than in motorcycle accidents. Car drivers are endlessly mowing down pedestrians and bicyclists, and endlessly wrapping themselves in, around or under all manner of other vehicles and stationary objects, resulting in serious human carnage and property damage. But does anyone say this is cause to ban cars? Never!
Cars are for important people and the price must be paid, while motorcycles are for the poor, for farmers, for unimportant people and hence are a serious nuisance to the important people.
Such is life in the authoritarian people's republic, where the voice of reason has no place. Only propaganda holds sway.
What's more, to elaborate on ZMC888's other point about the lack of skills training: I'd wager that most of those 20 people hurt in "motorcycle" accidents in Bigdamo's town were hurt not while riding a proper motorcycle, but while riding ebikes or other substandard deathtraps with brakes in poor repair, lights not working, tires underinflated, excessively heavy or large loads, multiple passengers, etc. In my experience, actual licensed motorcyclists on legal motorbikes actually do pretty well in traffic, though they are often victimized by drivers of cars. I strongly suspect it's all these unregulated unlicensed unplated two-wheel vehicles that are involved in most of the road carnage.
But the propaganda machine lumps us all together as "motorcycles" and we'll pay the price.
cheers.
I think you're missing the point that while most Chinese drive equally stupidly in cars and motorcycles, a motorcycle accident is much dangerous than a car accident.
I totally agree on the propaganda issue though, and it's not like it's taking much to convince Chinese that motorcycles are for poor farmers only.. they already believe that.
Unless you are the pedestrian or bicyclist or motorcyclist who is hit by the errant, stupidly driven car. These things don't often happen in a vacuum, but in terms of public safety, not just rider safety, cars probably cause tens or hundreds of times more road carnage than motorcycles do.Quote:
Originally Posted by slabo
When you got slaboed, was that because "motorcycles are dangerous"? No, it was because a stupid girl climbed over a barrier that was supposed to have stopped her, and ran into your path. How about banning stupid girls, or barriers that are too low to be effective....
Better yet, how about banning drivers who lack skills and responsibility to drive, whether on a bike or in a car or a bus or truck?
cheers!
It took a long time for the authorities back home to educate the public about rider safety and instill rider education programs.
Getting my motorcycle DL in the early 70s was a two minute display through four cones on a 90cc at 0900 one morning. By 1000, I left the DMV office with my license and by the afternoon I was on my shiny new Kawasaki two-stroke 400cc doing wheelies and burn-outs. A "buddy" was my teacher because he'd been riding for a whopping 3 months.
Within a few weeks, the 400cc twin was too sissy, so I upgraded to the Kawa two-stroke 750cc triple (aka, the widow-maker). Then a couple of months later, the Kawasaki Z1 super bike. And so on, and so on. The only possible reason I survived being an idiot-teenager was because someone upstairs was watching out for me. Not the case with a few buddies, including my "teacher."
Move ahead four decades, and to get a MC license back home now ... mandatory classes, graduated licensing over two years (cc restrictions, no passengers, maximum speed, no night riding, zero tolerance for infractions), and very strict enforcement of traffic laws for motorcycles. Plating a bike also requires annual mechanical safety inspections.
I think that it will take a long time in China to move in that direction, but it will happen. Already I've started to notice a HUGE difference with the Harley riders who are members of the Harley Owners Group (H.O.G.), versus Harley riders who think they know it all. No one knows what they don't know ... and that is what kills them.
HOG instills rider training & safety from the beginning. Maybe it is a bit of self-selection happening here - people who pay the price for a legal bike, with a legal plate, and attend riding classes/events ... versus ... someone picking up an illegal cruiser and hopping on, probably without a DL, and certainly with a fake plate (no insurance).
I wish someone would organize proper training for the average Joe. Aside from the obvious need, it would help our position. We are our own worst enemies by not advocating proper rider education and proper rider safety.
The preceding posts are definitely accurate - it is likely the yokels that get into crashes, but we are all getting lumped into the same statistical pile.
grrrrrr - OK, off my pedestal. Damn, I've become just like my parents.
No propaganda on this one.No one saying anything bad against motorcycles here nothing in the media.This is just the way it is here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
Possibly the people on here are paranoid against people taking away there right to legally ride a motorcycle in parts of China?
My sister works in the casualty dept of one of the hospitals.She told me.Her husband used to ride a motorcycle no problems now has a car(come another month motorcycles,bikes will be put away for the winter Car you can use all year).
If you think motorcycling is safe even if you have the proper training your kidding yourself.
As my friend says"It's the ones who don't see you and you don't see them that get you"
To many near misses for me luckily I am getting better in old age but I still know it's a dangerous sport/hobby.
All the training in the world is going to do you no good if the other road users don't respect/Look out for you.Doesn't matter which country your in although China is extremely bad for that.
You have an accident on a motorcycle with another vehicle and a very strong chance your going to hospital(some people just don't want to accept that fact) .Have an accident in a car with another vehicle and you are probably going to walk away.
ZMC888 is not spot on.Motorcycling is a dangerous sport/hobby/transport if your in denial on this fact you will be one of the stats next.Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
1:Are there more people bought in for "hospitals for treatment of injuries sustained in car "accidents" than in motorcycle accidents. "Who knows most of the people drive around at about 40 maybe 50kph in the city out in the countryside 50kph to 100kph. If a car hits another car at 40kph they walk away.If a car hits a motorcycle at 40kph driver walks away rider probably goes to hospital.
"Car drivers are endlessly mowing down pedestrians and bicyclists," Yep sure are.But hey guess what so are motorcyclist to. Here you have to watch out for the arrogant motorcyclist who changes from vehicle road to pedestrian path at will not slowing down with reckless abandonment. I'm sure they have put alot of people in hospital.I know some of the people who they have put in hospital and who suffer from the injuries years after.Gee I can't understand why my friends who have been injured by motorcycles don't like motorcycles.
"Cars are for important people and the price must be paid, while motorcycles are for the poor, for farmers, for unimportant people and hence are a serious nuisance to the important people."
Maybe but what motorcycle do you have?are you poor,are you a farmer.
Plenty of people up here have very expensive japanese and euro motorcycles.I know these people are riding these bikes at ridiculously high speeds out on the toll road(200kph+)That toll road goes from excellent condition to crap overnight due to the vast number of trucks using it at night.There a an accident waiting to happen.
Yesterday I saw a person on a Yamaha WR450 2010 model wheeling up the street at speed in the city with reckless abandonment.He weren't no poor farmer. Gee I can't understand why some people hate motorcycles?
"I'd wager that most of those 20 people hurt in "motorcycle" accidents in Bigdamo's town were hurt not while riding a proper motorcycle, but while riding ebikes or other substandard deathtraps with brakes in poor repair, lights not working, tires underinflated, excessively heavy or large loads, multiple passengers, etc."
You would lose your wager.
My sister and I don't count Ebikes they are more like a bike.
Due to things happening up here a couple of months ago road blocks and police checks where ramped up to high.I'd say most autos have been given the once over here.
"In my experience, actual licensed motorcyclists on legal motorbikes actually do pretty well in traffic, though they are often victimized by drivers of cars. I strongly suspect it's all these unregulated unlicensed unplated two-wheel vehicles that are involved in most of the road carnage."
Do you have many motorcycles riding around in Shanghai? when I was there and in Beijing I did not see many motorcycles.
There are plenty of legal bikers up here riding around on expensive foreign motorcycles doing arrogant crazy things.
I don't know about the propaganda machine but most times it is a small minority that spoil it for the rest and feed the propaganda machine.These small minority then move on to another sport and stuff that and then move on.You also have people who just see the propaganda machine as coming after them and fight them all the way they rarely win.I have found it is better to work with the powers that be and even try to think what they are thinking so you can work together to solve the problem.Trust me you won't beat them.
Damo, cars kill...fact. Experienced properly trained motorcyclists very rarely get hurt.
-My Aunt rode a motorcycle for 35 years and was an instructor, died of breast cancer 15 years ago.
-My Uncle also rode for 35 years, died of a heart attack last year.
-Same goes for 2 grandfathers one of whom was a dispatch rider in France during WW2.
Yet when I was a child two different people I knew died in car crashes both were parents of friends. I have only known two motorcyclists that died when riding and they were both drunk riding.
Although I have to agree to some extent about the recklessness of some riders. For me, having had ridden many smaller displacement bikes for so long and having toured on bigger bikes. In any European or Asian country a 500 twin is more than enough power for me, ever, and find it hard to keep me feet on the pegs if I open her up properly. I've ridden for 20 years and this is the biggest I would ever need, and I've owned 650s and rented 750s and 1000cc bikes. So I find it strange when people want R1s or Fireblades, Ducatis. Too much for a European road, much to much for China.
Damo, I hate to say it but if you think motorcycling is unsafe you don't have enough training, although training takes many forms including reading books about techniques and talking to more experienced riders. Also I get a bitter feeling that as you aren't allowed to ride where you are, so misery loves company, eh?
When you look at statistics for motorcycling deaths remember:
1. How many were not at fault and were knocked down by cars/trucks etc
2. How many were inexperienced or inadequately trained.
3. How many were riding on a bike that was unsuitable for the road or their skill level.
4. How many were drunk.
In fact I have a compromise. If you must ban, then ban race replica bikes. They are good for race tracks, but actually not that good on a real road.
Race replica bikes in my opinion only for German's autobahn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
I think any vehicle goes faster than 200kmh doesn't make sense to Chinese road. On G roads, anything faster than 120 doesn't make sense too. Motorcycle in the end are not much difference than bicycle. Speeding definite kills.
ZMC,Cars and motorcycles kill...FactQuote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
My friend who I used to race with back home was a Experienced properly trained motorcycle instructor with 40 years experience racing both dirt and road and had been teaching/training motorcyclists for many years.He died on his bike a couple of years ago.Exited a corner just a bit to wide but still in his lane but a car was cutting in just abit to tight and clipped him. That's all it takes .
I know of many friends injured and killed on motorcycles to many to mention here none of them where drunk.All where properly trained.You have to be in Australia now to get your license.Most did rider training courses of some form or another.
I have enough training started riding Motorcycles when I was about 8 or 10 years old to long ago for me to remember.
Started racing at 14 or 15 years old.Had to do training(2 hours every weekend for a year) so I could go and race.
Went and got my road license at 17 years old got training didn't have to but my father made me.
Went and raced MX for many years did a few MX camps while racing then switched to racing Enduro's got training in that.
Stopped racing had a few years off the bike went and got my road license(let it lapsed)This time you have do a 2 day course come back and do a test both on rider skills in a controlled environment and a test out on the road in about a month. That is were I was taught that motorcycles are dangerous you can get nailed by other road users real easy.Something I don't think you understand.
Started motorcycle trials competition thought I would nail that quick. Never did get it right but that is the best motorcycle control training you will get(did a school on that to).Made it to c grade no way I want to ride B or A grade way to dangerous.
So yeah I think I have enough experience but you never stop learning.
Am I bitter about not riding motorcycles.Motorcycles are in my and my families blood.My old man raced speedway as a passenger on outfits in the sixties(you don't get anymore dangerous than that at that time no margin for error there) I guess that is where I get my passion for racing.My wife doesn't like me riding motorcycles any where but she knows I am going to do it.Now she says don't tell her.Same as skiing Back Country here she doesn't like it but she knows I am going to do it.
As I tell my wife it is safer going racing than just going for a ride on the road.
I'll say it again it is other road users who will probably get you especially in China. You ride for longer enough and you are going to have an accident (just like driving a car someday your going to have an accident)just some people think there invincible maybe because they have training.
"Mans got to know his limitations" In my old age I'm sort of learning mine.
Hmmmm ... not sure I agree with those two rubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by diefascanda
Again, I don't know what I don't know, and that may kill/injure me, but what I do believe is this ...
1) Many years of riding experience actually only means ONE thing ... I am older. I am no longer 20 years old ... my limbs are weaker ... my bones are more brittle ... I don't heal as quickly ... my reactions are slower ... my eyesight is poorer ... my center of gravity seems to be moving from my chest to my waist ... and there might be a few dead neurons. Slow bikes suit me just fine.
2) Many miles of riding experience has to be tempered with how those miles were accumulated. There is no comparison between 500 miles on a GL1800 (with cruise control) across interstates, and 5 miles on a dirt bike in single tracks up/down steep slopes. I always tip my helmet to skilled off-road riders - those guys/gals amaze me with their bike control skills.
3) Like a coin toss ... all prior tosses have no bearing on whether the next one lands heads or tails. Every time I get on my bike, I am flipping a coin. I can control my bike, but I can't control the thousands of other things happening around me.
4) Motorcycling is an inherently risky sport/activity. The risks can be substantially reduced by proper training, proper equipment and proper practices ... just like scuba diving and sky diving. Ever see someone jump out of an airplane with their parachute being held, all bunched up, in their arms ... saying "ah, good enough"? Ever see a scuba diver go down with a faulty air hose ... saying "ah, no problem, it'll be fine"? Ever see a motorcyclist get on a bike without a helmet?
5) During my first year of riding in China, I had more close calls than my prior decades of riding experience. I've necessarily developed a passive/aggressive style of riding in China, where I am always trying to keep my distance from traffic/people/animals/road hazards. If I rode back home how I ride here, well, I'd probably be under a lifetime ban by now.
Despite the risks, it sure beats sitting in a crowded bus.
bigdamo, I think you're missing the point that ZMC is trying to make. The way that I at least interpret it is not that "it's impossible to get hurt on a motorcycle if you're properly trained with a lot of experience" but rather that quoting statistics about motorcycle accidents is NOT an argument for the banning of motorcycles. The original post and the title of this thread is: "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities". THIS is what is being called propaganda- citing a totally ambiguous and arbitrary statistic without offering any substantiated background or context for that statistic. Important information would be: how long had those people been riding, what were they riding, who was ultimately at fault, was the other person in a car, were they licensed, as well as the sample size as was stated in earlier comments. It's a completely bogus argument to say that since there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, they should ban motorcycles. Drugs are illegal in most countries but that doesn't stop the drug related deaths and violence. The solution is, as Lao Jia Hou indicated in a previous response, proper training, licensing, and regulation rather than driving the sport/hobby/form of transportation under ground. You are fortunate enough to be able to use your car in the winter to travel, many in China are not.
The point is not that you don't have to be killed on a motorcycle if you're actually a good driver. Of course it's easier for you to get killed on a motorcycle than in a car since you're more exposed. However good and well trained motorcyclists are inherently more cautious because of that risk. There is a large amount of moral hazard inherent in driving a car, which is what makes them more dangerous. Cars take more risks since they're probably more safe. Back home, if you've taken a motorcycle safety course, your car insurance actually goes down about 10% on top of your motorcycle insurance going down, simply because the insurance companies are aware that this makes you a better driver.
I just recently finished a 1,700km trip down the coast from Beijing to Qingdao and I was appalled at the state of the 4+ wheeled drivers out there; it made me grateful that I live in Beijing. There is absolutely no sense of how to deal with motorcyclists on the road. I can't tell you how many times I was pushed out of my lane or had oncoming traffic passing in my lane or cars making left turns out of intersections when I was driving. Maybe the problem is a complete lack of education for drivers on both sides of the situation. I often found myself wishing I had packed some ball bearings to keep in pocket to teach lessons the old fashioned Hell's Angel way... I can also tell you that I found far more accidents with cars involved over those 7 days of driving than motorcycles (including even the e-bikes or small motorcycles/scooters), even from a percentage perspective.
+1 ...dittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
Bucko i said "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" not "this is the reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucko
Do you think the Chinese government are going to do a full blown analyst of motorcycle statistics I doubt it.Even if they did you and I will not have access to it.
Where did I say they should ban Motorcycles?
I read here that other people think they should ban cafe racers I think that is pretty hypocritical.What my bikes Ok but those high powered cafe racers are not.Plenty of roads up here you could use one just not at 200kph+ on the toll roads.
No doubt proper training and applying that training in proper context certainly minimizes the risks. Just that I see some people do the training and they now think they know everything.
The people up here have do alot of training to get there car license doesn't look to me there an expert driver.Same goes for some motorcyclists back home after alot of training yeah they can ride better but some think that after all that training there now an expert and push the limits sometimes with disastrous results.That's a fact.
Another bloke I know was a motorcycle postie(postman) he had to do a four day motorcycle training course once every 18 months and a 5 day course before he started so he was extremely well trained.He had been a postie for 3 years riding to work one day on his motorcycle riding up between the cars and trucks to the traffic lights he clipped or the car clipped his handlebars(he is dead so he couldn't tell the police what actually happened)tumbled off his bike under a b double truck back wheels truck ran over his chest and head didn't die straight away but 10 minutes latter.All the training didn't save him.
Ive seen plenty of motorcyclists lose there license for speeding most are well trained even though they get a discount on insurance or discount on license fees if they have no traffic infringements in the last 5 years.
By the way I don't have a car.
It would be better to have a motorcycle aware program for car drivers and other road users implemented but that is not going to happen here.
One major reason they banned motorcycles from most cities is because they tend to act as illegal taxis. They are cheaper obviously than regular taxis and do not pay tax. Not only that a lot of passengers get injured with no chance of compensation.. Another reason that motorcycles are banned from cities is they indulge in crimes, mostly handbag snatching.. The numbers of accidents is small compared with that of the dreaded ebike. At least with the motorcycles people had to pass a test and have a "registered" vehicle on the road and carry insurance. I'm sure everyone agrees that Ebikes need to be insured, tested regularly and some sort of proficiency test taken and helmets worn and one person per bike!!! BLAH BLAH BLAH..
The problem lies not just with motorcycles or ebikes, cars, etc.. The problem is a system where the majority of people believe that any problems will be sorted out by the police and that the insurance will pay. There is no emphasis on the need for self responsibility. Also there is a serious lack of government sponsored "public information ads" on the TEEVEE.
They could charge an annual fee for bikers wishing to enter cities and issue a special license which must be shown at all times.. This licence could be several thousand RMB.
It would be great for courier companies who need speed and easy access to city centres and posers like me who like to show off....
ditto.. but during my first years of riding in China I was stuck with the 750 Sidecar unit.. It's a heap of crap but hell.. saved my life many times....
I don't know what you're correcting in my quote of what you said? I quoted the title exactly how you said you said it. You said here is a reason. Other users called that propaganda. I was defending that claim given the way that that argument was presented, which was out of context and with little substance. I would say a/the reason is that the Chinese government doesn't know how to handle the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdamo
I agree that it's hypocritical to ban one kind of motorcycle and not another. This is again where my comment comes into play about statistics. The initial post of yours about the 20 motorcycle accidents comes off as propaganda if you don't indicate what kind of bikes were involved in the accidents. Chances are, almost all of them were below 200cc. Thus it doesn't make sense to ban cafe racers as a way to solve the motorcycle accident problem when most of them are not cafe racers.
As for the postie friend, I'm sorry to hear about his passing. It is very unfortunate when another biker loses their life like that especially even with proper training. However, that said, it is recommended that you probably shouldn't be riding the line between cars. Most of us do it of course, but it is inherently dangerous and any rider, especially with proper training, should be aware of that risk before engaging in it. By riding like this you are putting yourself in a countless number of cars' blind spots at a much higher relative speed to the other drivers. This is INCREDIBLY dangerous. Proper training would teach you this. Proper training teaches you that it's not how good of a driver you are but how bad other drivers are and thus you take the necessary precautions against these: honk at blind intersections and blind turns, don't ride the line, check your blind spots, don't be in others' blind spots, etc.
I don't know what country you're talking about losing your license for speeding, but at least in the U.S. you would have to be speeding WELL over the speed limit to lose your license, and at those levels, I see nothing wrong with taking away that person's license, since as you've mentioned they give other bikers a bad name and are simply an accident waiting to happen regardless of your training.
"the people up here have do alot of training to get there car license". Where is "up here" and what does that training actually entail? My guess would be not that much, and from what I know of the testing here in Beijing, it doesn't add up to much driving skills.
About the car, I guess I just misread a previous post.
Motorcycle aware programs are definitely possible in China. The central government has never shied away from PSAs. All you have to do is see the difference in drivers within Beijing and without. Most of that is largely do to efforts made during/for the olympics. The problem though is that to have such a program, the government would have to lend a certain amount of legitimacy to motorcyclists, which they don't want to do. So they'd rather ban them or restrict them then educate people on them. In other countries it's common to see "share the road" signs, etc. on highways. Here, all you see is the no motorcycles allowed sign as you ride past it. So rather than educate they restrict and ban, which in my opinion is wrong and asking for trouble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucko
Pretty straight forward I said "Here is a reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" " a" meaning there is a number of reasons. This is but one of them. If i said "here is the reason why motorcycles are barred from most cities" that would be propaganda and ill informed.
Ahh the old statistics game crap. Been involved in land access rights for motorcycles and MTB to know that one group can go and get statistics to support there cause and the other group can go and get statistics to support there cause both from qualified statistics companies.Gee funny that.
I never said they were statistics I said my sister worked in the local hospital ( there version of causality dept to be precise but I didn't mention that) That is on average how many motorcyclists she admits a day.I also said there are two hospitals here and I don't know how many motorcycle the other hospital treats a day.I'm betting it would be more it is a better hospital.Go and waste your time getting stats.I'd say you won't find them and don't just do it for Beijing do it for the whole country.
It is legal in Sydney,Australia to ride your motorcycle between cars and trucks which are stationary up to traffic lights.It is covered in your "proper training".
Speeding 10kmh over the speed limit they can take your license if your points are nearly gone or the copper decides to make life hard for you. That's in Australia.The coppers are out in force now due to it being spring. Weather has warmed up and everyone is taking there motorcycles out for a run.So the coppers will blitz them at least for the next month.The coppers will even put it in the media that they are going to be targeting them and where and alot of motorcyclists with proper training will still go out and do stupid things and get caught and crash.
Most of my friends who had done proper training where done doing 80kmh in a 60kmh zone some 100kph. Not hard to do as most bikes will do 80kmh in second gear.But yes there fault pay the price.But as I said just because you have done training doesn't mean your invisible or a total expert or have lapse of concentration.
Up here Shihezi sorry it is not as well known as Beijing heard of Google.
The learner car drivers that I know are putting in about 6 hours a week lessons varying between 1 and 3 months period.Defensive driving,Driving in all weather conditions and roar rules etc si what they are learning.
Maybe some of us on here should have done the full motorcycle and car training/test rather than saying I'm fully trained in my own country let me sit the computer test and I'm good to go.Hell I might even go and do some more training here before I embark on the madness they call driving/riding here.
I don't understand first you say
"Motorcycle aware programs are definitely possible in China."
then you say
"the government would have to lend a certain amount of legitimacy to motorcyclists, which they don't want to do. So they'd rather ban them or restrict them then educate people on them."
Which is it?
Did you read all of my posts or did you just get all hot under the collar and started spitting chips when you saw "here is a reason motorcycles are barred in most cities"
As i said before motorcycle training minimizes the risk but your not invincible.Its the ones you don't see who can get you.
Once again where did I say ban motorcycles?
Wow, you are significantly more hostile than is warranted for this forum or for this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdamo
Please work on your grammar. It would make your point(s) much easier to understand.
I don't think anyone here would disagree with the fact that motorcycles are dangerous. Proper defensive driving tactics and driving intelligently, avoiding unnecessary risks, can however significantly minimize the danger of riding a motorcycle and in many instances, given the maneuverability of motorcycles, make them in some ways safer than cars. Training doesn't necessitate employing these tactics, but employing them does necessitate minimizing the risks.
I personally love riding my motorcycle. It is much more preferable to taking the bus here in Beijing, and on top of that it's just a lot of fun. Riding here is a risk, but so is walking, riding a bike, breathing the air, drinking baijiu, or eating street food. I do what I can to minimize those risks using what education have on the matters and go on with my life.
For anything else on this subject, I'll have to echo Lao Jia Hou's 5 points he offered in "2 more fen" and leave at that as your hostile and defensive attitude makes anymore constructive dialogue far too difficult.
Spoken like a true American.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucko
Should that be American grammar I should work on ?
Haha, when all else fails... time to bring out the American jokes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdamo
"Up here Shihezi sorry it is not as well known as Beijing heard of Google."
American grammar, the Queen's grammar, whichever you like is fine with me.
Ride safe! PAL
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Moped, scooter drivers deadly
Shanghai Daily Newspaper / Oct 14, 2011
The frequent traffic accidents involving mopeds and scooters, many of them fatal, shed light on reckless drivers in the city, but enforcement is very difficult for authorities.
The riders on mopeds and scooters running red lights, speeding or driving into car lanes, a common scene at busy crossroads, are a headache for traffic police who already are overwhelmed by the dangerous tactics of car and truck drivers on crowded roads.
"The small mopeds can cause big trouble," Wang Denghai, traffic police chief in downtown Zhabei District, said yesterday.
This year, traffic accidents involving bikes, mopeds and scooters have accounted for 269 deaths, more than 40 percent of all traffic fatalities in Shanghai. In most cases, riders should have borne at least as much responsibility as vehicle drivers, say police. Some officers worry that the situations "are getting worse."
In a citywide crackdown yesterday, police spotted many moped and scooter riders driving recklessly and fearlessly at busy intersections, even with officers present. Maneuvering among moving vehicle flows at the crossing of Hutai and Hengfeng roads in Zhabei District, a moped tried to rush through after the light had turned red about 7am. The rider was stopped by an officer and fined 5 yuan (78 US cents).
In most cases, of course, violators won't be stopped, as officers and traffic assistants simply watch them pass. Officers say they are hard to catch and stop one by one because of their sheer numbers.
"They dash toward the roads just like a school of fish," said officer Yang Zhenqing in Zhabei District. "More often than not, they just run the red lights all together."
At the busy intersection of Yuyuan and Wanhangdu road snear Jing'an Temple, traffic assistants sometimes stand on the pedestrian pass, or crosswalk, using their bodies to block the eager bikes and mopeds from crossing the line. "They are fast and seem to come out all of a sudden," said a driver.
A migrant worker, surnamed Yan, a frequent moped rider, said he was hit and injured by another moped before the holiday and police ruled both shared responsibilities.
The city now has more than 13 million mopeds, scooters and bikes. About 280,000 use gas and 3 million use electricity. Migrant workers have become the main owners of mopeds sand scooters. They usually do not have license plates or carry out-of-town ones, police said.
Police said the top allowed speed for scooters and mopeds is 15 kilometers per hour. But officers found during routine checks that 80 percent of them exceed that speed.
I think this is huge and a big part of the problem in cities. Places like Beijing and Shanghai have been making a lot of progress in terms of, at least relatively, civilized driving techniques. But any trip 50km outside of either of those places will tell you that it's mostly an isolated practice. So of course when you have the people from these outer areas taking their habits into the city on an unregulated vehicle, it's going to cause problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pal
I think the other problem is the way that accidents are handled and classified for these vehicles. I recently got into my first motorcycle accident in China, and it was with an electric scooter, carrying two migrant workers going the wrong way down a busy four-lane highway (not in the bike lane) and slammed into me full speed as I was pulling out of a driveway. The problem was is the way the rule is designed is that since I was bigger, I classified as a car and he classified as a bicycle. Thus, I was going to be held fully responsible if the cop hadn't mediated in such a way to let the matter die. This offers very little incentive to follow the rules and in fact plenty of incentive to ignore them. Though I had to pay for my own repairs, I was lucky enough to not have to accompany the gentleman on the other bike for hospital visits, pay for those visits, or pay to fix his bike, which could have been a nightmare.
Sorry to hear you had your first motorcycle accident in China luckily you came away unharmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucko
It looks like your vast amount of experience and training didn't stop the accident.
Thanks for your constructive comment. Read my posts, read my point. Offer something constructive, or don't participate in the conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdamo